Ben Delaney: Journalist + YouTuber on Racing Gravel, Reviewing Gear & Independent Cycling Media
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As a respected journalist, Ben Delaney has written and edited for top outlets like VeloNews, BikeRadar, and Cycling Weekly. He’s also the director of content at FasCat Coaching. Last year, he decided it was time to take a crack at creating his own cycling content.
Enter Ben's YouTube channel, The Ride. With a million views in just a year, it's clear that Ben has hit the mark. The Ride offers expert reviews on bikes, gear, and tires, as well as exclusive interviews and behind-the-scenes footage from some of the toughest gravel races around.
Though he is humble about it, with wins at the SBT GRVL Blue Course and the BWR Utah 45+ field, he’s a force to be reckoned with on the trails. In this episode, Ben joins host Andrew Vontz to share universal lessons that come from career changes, gravel races, and going out on your own.
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Choose the Hard Way is a podcast where guests share stories about how hard things build stronger humans. Sign up for the newsletter to get the story behind these stories updates and more. If you’d like to suggest a guest or say hello, DM @hardwaypod on social or send an email to choosethehardway@gmail.com.
Host Andrew Vontz has spent more than 25 years telling and shaping the stories of the world’s top performers, brands and businesses. He has held executive and senior leadership roles at the social network for athletes Strava and the human performance company TRX. His byline has appeared in outlets like Rolling Stone, Outside magazine, The Los Angeles Times and more.
Today he advises and consults with businesses and nonprofits on high-impact storytelling strategies and coaches leaders to become high-performance communicators. Find him on LinkedIn or reach out to choosethehardway@gmail.com
In This Episode:
Ben Delaney Instagram | YouTube
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Andrew Vontz LinkedIn
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Ben Delaney 3:37
I guess what it comes down to Andrew is that I'm a joiner, you know, and that is combined with some sort of like karmic retribution, that things that I make fun of are people I make fun of, I end up finding myself doing or becoming and both gravel and triathlon fall into those categories. So triathlon was a much briefer just kind of taste test, you know, did the boulder Ironman the first year it was here because it seemed like a thing to do. And that sort of scared me a little bit because I don't know how to swim and running is not appealing but gave it a crack and enjoyed the places that I found myself in training like swimming in a lake at sunrise like that lakes been there as long as I've lived here, but I've had no reason to go flail around in the water at that time of day or anytime until I had like, the fear of this big hairy goal in front of me. So
Andrew Vontz 4:31
how did that work out for you? Where did it take you existentially to participate in triathlon?
Ben Delaney 4:37
Where did it take me access to it was a humbling place. A very, very humbling place. The year I did it. They had changed the start protocol from everyone is rushing together and swim over the top of each other. Like some sort of like Darwinian starts to a more in my mind civilized. pick where you think you stack up finish wise and then line up there. So I lined up near the back with little ladies who are like in their 60s. And so that was yeah, that was humbling. And then
Andrew Vontz 5:13
you swam over the top of them, I'm assuming to get,
Ben Delaney 5:16
right. That was more of the other way around. But, you know, I think of how many 1000s of people that came out of the water, I was very near the back of that. So,
Andrew Vontz 5:29
I mean, let's just go on a really hot direction right away, when I hear you say that what I think about is the race that I did last weekend. And an observation that I had that I think I shared with you when we were texting was that the mass gravel start, particularly when it goes on a high speed downhill, that's not neutral with a group of 500 to 1000 people immediately. It doesn't strike me as a particularly safe, intelligent or sustainable way to begin a race. So where are you at? On this topic? Ben, let's put a stake in the ground.
Ben Delaney 6:02
So this is rasp pizza. Yes, yeah, the first hour of gravel races is like the most beautiful and the worst part of the whole thing like I you can definitely put me in the camp of appreciating the mass start. I love the all of the we're all in it together. thing for a number of reasons that, okay, all ages and genders and skill levels can all start together doing the same thing. That's cool. I appreciate that. It's also terrifying. In particular instances, such as the one you mentioned that it realized that with the start was a downhill on loose gravel. So I think, and this is geography dependent, but I think whenever possible, it is great to for promoters to insert a Hogwarts sorting hat early in the events by way of gravity. You know, so for instance, bewafa, right, California a couple years ago changed the course to have like a, I don't know, it's like a two mile, climb, maybe mile half, something like that, within the first four miles. So that very quickly, you have to get in where you fit in. And instead of 1000 2000 3000 people all deciding that they need to be at the front heading into a tight, little, sketchy corner of doom. It's it's much more strung out and much safer. That you can't do that everywhere. And I don't know what the answer is. But like, at Unbound, for instance, you know, it's big and wide. And yeah, it's even even like the the pros of the frontlets. Here, that's can be a terrifying thing to be sort of out of control.
Andrew Vontz 7:49
Yeah, it can't be. And I want to be clear,
Ben Delaney 7:52
what do you think like, what's your take on how that can be solved? Because, yeah, I feel it down into like age group categories or categories where it's sort of Seattle. Last couple weeks ago, for instance, they did it like a mountain bike race, where we were all in little waves. And that made sense because it was on a mountain bike course it was single track, but like, that was a very different thing. And I feel nearly as when big families is gravels.
Andrew Vontz 8:17
Right? If you're listening and you have no idea what rescue Tita is, it's a gravel race that takes place in Vermont, I did the longer version of it, to have an in kilometers, but it wasn't actually 100 kilometers, I think it was around 58 miles, I did the long course it had 7200 vertical feet of climbing. And the start to be clear, it wasn't on gravel, I think we started in a dirt parking lot and hard left onto a high speed paved downhill, but shoulder to shoulder, the road surface, you know, you don't know what you're going to ride into. And then at the bottom, it was a hard left into a sustained claim. So that is where the field could get sorted out. It wasn't very clear from the prerace, fire up speech, etc. Whether that was a neutralized start or not there was like a car slash Moto, but the Moto actually got stuck and had to turn around in the middle of the group of riders after those after they had started the ride. So they had started the ride. I think a car took off the race motor, though was stuck. People were like swarming around it, then it had to turn around. And you know, like, yeah, you can line up wherever I do like that egalitarian aspect of gravel. And at the same time. You know, you don't know what the relative skill level or level of comfort people around you might have in a group. And this is something I think about all the time as it relates to inclusivity and cycling and when I think about my experience as a young person in Kansas City showing up to group rides, and you know, throughout much of the next three decades It's having all different kinds of people cursing at me and yell at me while I was doing group rides. And something that is a bit unique about cycling relative to you show up at a basketball court or a tennis court, or whatever to do the sport with someone. You're number one, you're on open roads, someone did diet rescue to this weekend, they, I don't know all the details, but from what's reported that crossed the center line, and how to head on with the truck. Yeah, I feel terrible for that person. And just, you know, that's tragic. And it underscores the fact that you're on open roads, often on group rides, and in these gravel races, and the actions of the people around you could actually kill you. And that's, you know, I don't encourage people to yell at each other when you're out. Riding, you know, you want to lift up the people around you and help them to ride safely. And like you are in a situation where things that are beyond your control could lead to catastrophic injury or death. And that's the actions of the riders around you. That's whether or not they're maintaining their equipment. I mean, I could like reach way back in the wayback machine here and talk about the exploding wheel incident that you had. But that was, what, 1520 years ago at this point.
Ben Delaney 11:23
Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 11:24
12. Okay. All right. So a while back, but yeah, so I think as it relates to the master to try to tie the knot here. I also think, for me, personally, my risk tolerance over time with being in athletic competition has completely changed as a father. And, you know, I just want to have a safe experience more than anything else. And anything that can enhance the safety of that experience I'm in favor of I do think it would be better, probably to let people self select based on I think I'm going to finish in about this time, as they do at Leadville as they do I think they do that in marathons. I'm not a runner, but that's yes. Sources familiar have told me that's what takes place. Right? And then you can kind of go from there versus whatever might happen currently.
Ben Delaney 12:16
Yeah. And you know, I think Unbounce started that same thing. Last year, and maybe even a year before of people there and the starting crowds holding up a sign with the estimated finish time. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a tricky sticky one. For sure. And it's it's going to be here, just the likes of Ian Boswell, who is one unbound has some of the same feelings and take some of the same actions as you do if like, yeah, I don't want to hit the ground at high speed. And I'm willing to give up a little bit of the draft. Just so I, my blood pressure comes down. I can see a bit more. But even then, if you're in the front group, yeah, you ease off and then some people will swarm around you and you're right back where you started. It's like wheel the wheel and yeah,
Andrew Vontz 13:06
it's part of that beautiful dance of, of competitive cycling. But I mean, Ben, you mentioned that you were a gravel doubter, it sounds like for a while, and now this is kind of the thing that you're known for. And that you do you have an incredibly popular YouTube channel. And I definitely want to get into talking about the origins of that. What your intent was at the start and where you're headed. A great place to start though, is what how did you get started and gravel? When did you become gravel conscious? For me? It was for me, it was 2005. You and I, of course, both were cycling journalists, you still are but used to be what I did for a living for a while. And I gravel came into my consciousness around like 2004 2005 with trans Iowa, what was what was your point of origin?
Ben Delaney 13:58
Depends on how you chop it up. So like, I'm definitely one of those people like Well, I've been riding road bikes on dirt roads forever before we call it gravel. So there's that. But a pivotal point I can point to is my friend Nick leagan, who has literally written the book on gravel cycling, great book, great resource about both gear and events. Nick is wonderful for a number of reasons. He was a world tour level mechanic, Christian Armstrongs mechanic, Olympic gold, knows his stuff about stuff, the physical elements of a bicycle, and is a heck of an adventure himself. We were working together at the time when I was just vaguely aware of what's now unbound in dirty Kansa. And he was an early proponent, and was just so fired up about it. And he'd come back from the race and he'd show us every every point that he would give us as to why this was a good thing went into Are column a sec This is a terrible idea and Nick like everything you were saying sounds terrible and they show me pictures that makes it worse like hiding in a ditch as a storm blew over may have been a tornado like he thought that was an exhilarating thing we're like you're you're a moron. Why are you doing this you know the the time lapse photography of just nothing but a straight gravel road for on till eternity he thought was fantastic. I was like that that looks terrible. I'm never going to do this. I don't know what flip the switch from that to now me being one of these you know evangelists who will not shut up about it and people roll their eyes at me but then I point to Nick as as the guy and then again being being a joiners, like more of these events are popping up and and road racing, part of the losing its appeal and partly correct losing its mojo in terms of like the number of events and a number of options. The participant nature of gravel is definitely what hooked me and what keeps me going still, like I certainly still appreciate pro racing. But I don't miss covering it. Just because it's like it's it's a lot and I maybe I just kind of Odede myself on it. But for a lot of people watching pro racing or falling pro racing and then riding themselves is the thing, gravel, there's some personalities to follow up. But it's not really a it's not a spectator sport, by anyone's stretch. So I think that's why it's kind of hard to make an initial sell to it. Because, you know, unlike being able to show someone like a quick highlight reel of the NBA Finals, or something where within seconds, you're in awe of the world's best athleticism doing incredible things with gravel, just you get a few pictures, if you're not into it, it just it looks absurd. So how's that for a convoluted non answer for you?
Andrew Vontz 17:02
I think that's a great answer, Ben, and you're such a modest person that unless people listen to the introduction of this episode, they probably wouldn't know that. In fact, when you show up to a race, there's a high probability that within your age group, you're a likely winner or someone who's going to place well, and you're also quite competitive in the overall field than a lot of races. Was that the case? At the outset? Did you have a completers mentality when you began to grapple or were you like, I'm all in I'm going there to win.
Ben Delaney 17:36
Absolutely a completers mentality of the Completer versus computer. The fear the first unbound did like how do you what I had nothing but questions. And I put on a display of what not to do, which was I got a torn sidewall. And instead of taking a breath in addressing it and moving on, I was in a panic and huff and I ended up spending like 25 minutes by the side of the road as I did everything wrong, that you could do wrong and then ended up walking for a good portion. You know, like our whatever seven or eight is I was like debilitating cramps in the bike. I'm like, I can no longer believe the bicycle. So I got off and walked like, that's the first walking along a flat road and in a bicycle race. Yeah, definitely appreciated. The sense of satisfaction at finishing an absurdly long, unnecessarily hard challenge. There was like, I mean, euphoria is too strong a word, but like that was that felt like having done a thing. And I appreciated the we're all in it together. vibe of not just the participants, but people who've lived on the country roads that the course traversed, you know, out there with like stacks of like Walmart. bottled waters is like handing out to random strangers, because they're nice people like that. That was night and day difference than your average garden variety criterion where the locals are annoyed that you're there and blocking traffic. And it's yeah, just like the ebb and flow of groups that would come and go during the during the course of the day. And you're you're racing each other ostensibly, but mostly you're just trying to get through the bloody thing together. And I've been hooked. What was
Andrew Vontz 19:36
the magic of the sidewall repair? Did you finally pull out $1 Bill and fold it up? Or like, where did you go?
Ben Delaney 19:44
Yeah, so this was the first time I had attempted to use a Dinah plug that had a co2 attached to it and I had, you know, against what I and many others have told people to do. Try something for the first time in an event like no practice and so tried to plug a hole that was like a huge tears that covered in mud didn't realize like I tried to plug a huge tear with a little plug which the physics just didn't work so that was one cartridge gone. Couldn't find the hole to put a Boudinot. So put the two in, use another cartridge to blow up the two found the hole put into boot. Try to pump it up and I'd somehow ruptured the tube. It's just like just like went on and on and on and on but yet ended up cartridges expelled expense, flat tubes by the side of the road and food wrappers in the side and then pump that up with the hand to hand pump. My buddy Chris who had flooded like, seconds before me like he hit a rock and I was saying, oh, sorry, Chris, just as I hit what must have been the same rock. So he had a similar thing. We were both so frantic to change and chase back onto the front group. And I guess that maybe caused me a bit of a bluffer saying I was just trying to complete because I wanted to get back on the front group then, like even having no business do so like that was my like, roadie mentality. Like let's get back to the front group and Haste makes waste and I certainly made made a lot of waste. And yeah, he broke his pump and tried to pump up his sire so quickly. So we were we probably went through $100 and lots of stuff there. And he absorbed and relax. Great
Andrew Vontz 21:28
experience. Yeah. Yeah. And since then, how many gravel races have you done at this point?
Unknown Speaker 21:37
That's a good question. I ever
Ben Delaney 21:42
dozens. Yes, I've, with the start of this YouTube channel. Last year, I thought I would go all in on gravel, like still covering some road stuff, but like go all in on gravel, and do gear centric videos. Inside events whenever possible, in part because it's fun to do. And in part because just the visual spectacle of so many people together on dusty dirt roads, often in beautiful areas. Like that's a lot more interesting than just one old guy sitting on a curb talking about a bike at nauseam. So if you have done, unbound 200, a couple of times to 100. Got third there last year, when to try to win that one this year. You know, all the fast kids go on the 200. And like all go and the 100 with the the teenagers and the dads and you know the steamboat, a lot of that budget and waffle rides. The Mid South is one of my favorites. That's one that I recommend to anybody who's at all interested in gravel, because it I think encapsulates so much of what is cool about gravel that all aspects of the mullet are represented. If you want to race you'll find no shortage of competition at the front. There's people on fat bikes with whiskey flasks on their bikes are out there to make a full day of it. And then everybody in between. It's like a multi day celebration leading into debate where the racist not an afterthought but like that's just a part of what's going on there. So and then like I've done a bunch of just smaller regional ones, of which I'm also a proponent like people often ask like, what why should I do like we should do two, we should do one of the big ones just because they're a spectacle. And they're a thing, even if you're not even participating, like go and work a crew at unbound or go and volunteer at that steamboat gravel or something like this. And then to go to a smaller one Regional One, because chances are, you'll end up someplace you've never been before with people you might not have ever met. And since it is a smaller thing, it's it's safer and less stressful and probably less expensive. So not that you asked. But that's that's my recommendation. And like, what are the cool ones to do is like do a big one. Do a little one.
Andrew Vontz 24:10
Yep, big and little. I think I'm headed more in the little direction myself these days. But I agree with you. It's great to have that experience of what's a bucket list life experience for people, they've showed up the train for probably four months. And there's a lot of energy, there's a lot of excitement and at the outset of your YouTube channel, what was kind of your game plan for what you wanted to do. You did just kind of give like a rough outline of what you're doing on the channel. But what was your intent at the beginning? And what if any fear or risk did you feel around moving in that direction?
Ben Delaney 24:49
Yeah, yes. And still feel for sure. I mean, the the impetus was I had been laid off yet again by the cycling media industry. And I wanted and still want to make a go of trying it on my own. And yes, I've done some YouTube Stefan has worked for bikeradar British website gear focused bike gear focused website. And had the time I had thought at the time when that job came to an end were like, well, I should, I could probably do this on my own right but didn't have the guts to go for it. So just got to another gob. But I had that idea and thought in my head like what if it What if I could pull this off myself. And so this last go round was part of the outside Armada and got thrown from that train, as the bike industry at large and bike industry media in particular, are shrinking. Like, no time, like the present, let me see if I can actually make this work, and build up enough of an audience that it's a sustainable thing. hedging my bets a bit in that I'm working part time at fast cat coaching and training, doing content there. Enjoy that job and grateful for it, but have been honest with the founder Frank Overton from the beginning of like, look, I want to make my own thing work, man. So yeah, I mean, the fears. I mean, there's how much time we got here. Let it rip. Yeah, I mean, failure in a word, right? Like, what if I just pour my heart and soul into something and it sucks and people hate it or worse, they, no one cares, and it's ignored and nothing happens. And then just like regular garden variety, risks of like not being good at something you want to be good at. I like to think I'm decently competent in storytelling, and some of the basics of journalism. But I'm still very much a rookie at the mechanics of video editing, in the past had the luxury of working with professionals who would do that and now I'm enjoying slash being frustrated by figuring that element out. But it's been gratifying to see that yeah, I'm getting some traction I really enjoy the interaction with with viewers and the comments for the most part, not entirely, but for the most part, are so refreshingly devoid of the vitriol that so pervasive in our society today, but like on social media, and and even just like having worked at cycling news and better news and other like, bike race sites, often the comments were and are pretty rowdy, and sometimes vicious about it. Usually, it devolves down into doping accusations and then personal attacks back and forth from the fans and detractors. So it often go into the comment section with you know, kind of wincing, like bracing for impact. So with that as a contrast, just being a bike dork and talking about bike dork stuff, and having YouTube viewers chime in and share their experiences and add to the conversation and correct me and yeah, it's cool, it's been been gratifying. And the, the financial parts are starting to come together too. So the damn thing just might work. And you just might work.
Andrew Vontz 28:26
I think it's definitely gonna work. Ben, I'm a I'm a big fan of your videos. And I have been from the outside. And when you got started, did you have a strategic vision for where you were going to take the project? Or did you have the approach of testing a format? How'd you get rolling?
Ben Delaney 28:45
But a bit of both, you know, like,
Unknown Speaker 28:49
having
Ben Delaney 28:51
numbers are good. And that can be humbling sometimes and but kind of think about the difference in how we would create magazines and even like newspaper articles. When we did not have Google Analytics, telling us the minutiae of like, how many viewers of this story have what size monitor or they're viewing it on? Where did they come from? How long did they stay predator like on on on it was more to sort of gut feel like this is important. Why? Why do we know this? Because the people sitting around this desk in the in the newsroom say so where feels so it's just a gut feel. And I think there's there's still something to be said for that. Like, before you a project exists before there are Analytics, you got to start somewhere right? And having some experience and gut feel is important. Additionally, knowing what works is also helpful and I annoy people at Villa news and elsewhere with restaurant analogies if that doesn't really matter what we feel like cooking that night. If the people don't want to eat it, you know, effect people are coming to our place for chicken burritos, let's make some chicken burritos. And then maybe we can get cute with desserts and take some passion projects on there, but like mostly gonna be to see what works. And what works in the bike world is gear, like turns out, many of us in order to ride bikes, you need to have a bike and like a lot of us is like talking and thinking and reading about gears. And then within that having contextualized guidance helps, you know, so just the type of things you kind of make fun of in some ways, work, you know, like, I guess it is but a top five gravel bikes. And you could criticize that as being just like, get another listicle. But I think there's some value in like, okay, let's, here's the lay land here, all the different things. I've written a bunch of them. Here's what I like, here's why. And that's to give you a long winded answer to a short question. That was kind of the basic strategy of covered gravel gear, which I feel like is a small niche, but a niche that, I'd like to think I can wrap my hands around a bit, and one that some of the YouTube players aren't going after a full bore, like GCN obviously does a fantastic job. They're a behemoth. They're part of YouTube, right? They're not going to touch reviews with a 10 foot pole. So that's something I could do. And then again, like the unlike being in North America being on the wrong side of the ocean to cover European roadracing. Now I'm on the right side of that ocean for like being a small part of the describe a community. So yes, that was the rough idea. It was try to be North American, grab a guy talking about gear, go into events, and trying to share the context in Stoke, as best as possible from from a humble but hopefully, somewhat experienced perspective.
Andrew Vontz 32:03
Yeah, I mean, the decades of experience that you have shined through in the videos that you're making, I've watched the entire top five gravel bikes video with great interest because I'm, after my last event, I decided as I shared with you, I need to get off a cyclocross bike and on something that's perhaps a bit more stable at high speed, going down a hill. And I think that's probably one of the reasons people are finding and really enjoying your videos. And you mentioned kind of this deserts category, or experiments or areas where gut or intuition might take you. And you've established somewhat this formula, you're finding success with it. At this point, do you have anything that's in that experimental dessert category that you're eager to try but haven't had time? Or resources to experiment with? Yet?
Ben Delaney 32:55
Well, it's always like, I love talking to people, I love the excuse to ask whomever whatever. You know, like, I think it's something that you can probably appreciate with your podcast and with your previous jobs, finding interesting people and going up to them either literally or like this virtually right. And picking their brains just by saying hey, I'm Angie with the hard way pod and then just going for it like that. For me is a driver I love I love that process. And so that's the the type of tilting at windmills. So dessert category of like, this might not be the most big business Blockbuster video ever. But I think it's cool when I want to talk to this gal or this guy about what the heck they're doing over here. And they're seeing the limiters or I guess just my own guts having the courage to chase people down but yeah, I think it's again it's good to do a bounce of things that you know will work and serve serve the audience. And you know, the chicken burritos. And then next you know, surprise and delight is a phrase that gets thrown around often cynically but yeah, I think there's there's some value to that if you can do that, and that's the type of stuff I like reading in. I've got like a New York Times. Friday, Saturday, Sunday subscription and Yeah, somebody I want to know the news like what's going on? Just give me the straight news. I don't care about your, your artsy fartsy ideas, give me the news. There's that part of me as a consumer but then there's also part of like the opinion section where I just pop it open and reacts surprised me Tell me a cool story. And when that's a cool story, told well, I love that stuff. So
Andrew Vontz 34:57
and Ben when you think about those types of comments, sessions as I'm listening to you kind of riff on this, the first thing I thought of was your Nico Roche interview. And I know that's in the bike category. I love that video because I, personally, perhaps like you have a high degree of curiosity around what's it like for someone who's been at the World Tour level? To? You know, I have to imagine he's not like putting in keygen level miles at this point, right? He's just like, This guy has an insane engine. It's like, this is kind of cool. He seems to have an interesting perspective on life drops in I think that was DWR. Arizona, correct? Yeah, and had a sick custom bike. And then you had this really interesting conversation with him that I know, I really enjoyed it. So I thought that was rad. And then as I'm hearing you talk about that, a thought that I have is, Have you considered starting your own podcast?
Ben Delaney 35:58
Well, as I told you, before we started up I've got this little sticky note here that says speak up, because as my wife will tell you, I'm a mumbler. And even though I do the fast cat podcast on a weekly basis. I don't know if speaking on just audio format is my is my best foot forward. But no, I have not considered that. To give you a rambling answer that that bit would, Nick, I'm glad you brought that up that came about that was just like a testament to the benefit of just showing up. You know, know if that's what's the old filmmaker Woody? Woody Allen say like 50% of success is just showing up. I don't know if that's who originally said that or who that's attributed to. But yeah, part of the success I and others have, as storytelling is just showing up to find the stories. Like we're not creating the stories. Nico is an exceptional athlete, great person. multicam Olympians, broadcaster now that Irish gift of the gab that came about because we were staying in the same hotel. I didn't realize this I was just standing there waiting for the elevator. elevator opens and Nico's arrows like, hey, Nicholas rose. Hey, my name is Ben, Eleni. If you got some time, I just love to chat with you outside. That's cool. And he was he was super gracious about me just completely ambushing him unknowingly, as he's like, trying to get breakfast in the morning in the hotel lobby. So that's that, like I had this great vision of like, this is interesting person. I'm going to seek this out like that literally fell in my lap.
Andrew Vontz 37:37
Yeah, I mean, it read as I actually was like, Wow, that must be super tight with Nico. And this is so cool that he had this setup when he went to BWI, Arizona, how neat is I don't
Ben Delaney 37:46
know, there's like most of my life, just dumb luck. You can be chuck that went up to when you show up to one
Andrew Vontz 37:53
of these events, is again, you are more deeply in the consistent practice of this. I have not been in the practice of traveling and doing all the logistics and OB stuff that you need to do to go do a big bike race somewhere other than in your backyard. I just hadn't done it in a while until last weekend. And when I did, I discovered, wow, there is a very high cognitive load to this that I am not accustomed to this. It just it really struck me because I used to do it all the time. I had my whatever giant Tupperware tubs organized to be like that's the race thing. This has got the mechanic stuff, whatever. I was very out of practice. When I think about you doing this and you're doing it frequently, and you're traveling all over the place. Could you give us a sense of what goes into the logistics and ops side of what you're doing? Because you're going to come not just to even if you say I'm a Completer? No, you're not. You're a highly competitive athlete, you're an elite athlete. Basically, you're showing up you have the potential to win these races, you're going all out. You have to have your gear be dialed and then on top of that you're creating this content. So what is your rough plan going into one of these weekends? And how do you execute?
Ben Delaney 39:10
I screwed up a different way each time. I just have a little checklist usually like things stick elements I want to get, you know start off with the content. Okay, what's the story here? And formula recently has been let's do a bikes of this event like the man woman on the street type of thing. Just go around and chat with folks. That's the thing I want to get and then you know review on the bikes and gear. That's the thing I want to get. How and where am I gonna do that? Where's the quiet place? Just try to literally write down a list of like, what are the pieces I want to get? And then also have a checklist of stuff to put in the suitcase. He had big dummy and inevitably I'll still screw that one up and have to go beg or borrow something at 11pm the night before. But yeah, I've just having an idea of where you want to end up where you want to go. Literally and figuratively and then having the trying to have the flexibility to be open to what's there, whether that's Nico Roche walking out of a hotel or a kind, young child with a cold water bottle by the side of the road, or the draft of a big group coming past and just being open to the moment, man. But yeah, having an idea of like, what's the point here? What are we? What are we trying to accomplish? Did you charge your batteries on the camera and the mic equipment? Try to get the basics and then just trust that the details will somehow fall into place
Andrew Vontz 40:46
of all of the events that you've been at, at which you have made videos, when have things gone? The most wrong?
Ben Delaney 41:00
Like I said, I mean, I wasn't joking, I always screw something up in a different way. But it's, you know, sometimes it's yet to having a dead battery, like I go to set up to film and like the camera and turn on, like just super basic fails. Sometimes it's calling athletes the wrong name or asking them awkward questions. Sometimes it's crashing and breaking bikes or body parts or. Yeah, my knock on wood I haven't had yet one. Like, stupendously magnificent failure to rule them all. It's just more of a lot of garden variety. screw ups, where Yeah, you got to just kind of deal with it and move on. Right. And that's, that's a, that's one thing that I think we all appreciate about cycling is that sort of, I mean, self reliance is making it too big of a thing. But having issues whether that's flick fear, or flat tires, or negative emotions, or whatever, cramping legs, or stomach, and then just dealing with it, and realizing you can push through instead of being stuck in that moment. And going on to enjoy other things. And that's for me, like, why the bike is so important. And it's such a therapeutic tool for me, and I think for many other people is it crap can and will happen. And if you just keep pedaling, like, you know, just keep swimming like that kids moving Nemo, like
Unknown Speaker 42:43
that's a valuable thing.
Andrew Vontz 42:44
Do you find a high degree of transferability between the application of that philosophy when you're doing endurance events and things that happen in the rest of your life? Is that transferable for you?
Ben Delaney 43:00
Not as well as I'd like I'm better at philosophizing, while I'm pedaling, and I'm getting like a rush of endorphins and serotonin to my brain. And then in my life, I'm just apt to be grouchy sometimes and gets gets stuck in negative spirals. But I try to keep those lessons in mind.
Andrew Vontz 43:20
They're good lessons, they're powerful lessons, and the bike does continually put them into our sphere of consciousness, whether it's a torn sidewall, or a bent derailleur hanger, or a dead battery. And with all the experience you've had at these events now, what is your sense of what makes for a really outstanding event, from a community point of view, course design? Whatever the case may be, what jumps out at you is, yeah, this these are kind of the hallmarks of a really exceptional event.
Ben Delaney 43:54
When I was writing some of the copy for what's now called the ride collective events, I put something out there, I want to say it was the four C's like, challenge community, camaraderie and courses were the the four C's of what those offers, right? Well, I think good events offers like the, you know, a sense of place is vital. Good, bad and ugly. A challenge, I think is a key part of what draws us to it. And that can take a lot of different forms. Computers and computers, you know, just finishing the dang thing for a lot of folks. Is this is a daunting challenge. I think daunting challenges are good and maybe not like every Tuesday night but but periodically like setting your goal for yourself that you're little scared of and then working towards that. I think that's a worthwhile thing. The community is that it doesn't have to be a huge thing. It just Be like meeting to new people. That's, that's part of what I enjoy about it, whether it's like a Nico Rocher or someone who's SEC more normal like you were I as far as like, time on the bike
so you're gonna be a lot of different ways to slice it. But those are
Unknown Speaker 45:25
the basic elements.
Andrew Vontz 45:27
Who do you think does I mean, this is might be like, tell me who your favorite child is. But what events do you think are doing it right are doing at the best right now?
Ben Delaney 45:36
Well, like I mentioned, Bobby and Crystal Wintle, at the mid south, I think are crushing it. Crystal is, well, everybody on Earth is more subdued compared to Bobby. But you know, Crystal handles a lot of like the backend logistics. And Bobby is like this southern revivalist preacher, just manic energy climbing on top of cars. Literally every single person that comes across the finish line, not just at the gravel race on Saturday, but on the running the 50k running event on Friday. So he's out there standing in the street yelling on the mic. You know, it's like Bondo meets a southern preacher meets like a big huggy gray moth. He that's his personality is a big driver of that event, but around that has formed a lot of other elements that are, yeah, I think grab hold done right. If like, yeah, if you can take it, you can take it as seriously or as frivolously as you like, as far as the clock time or your what number you happen to be across.
Unknown Speaker 46:51
An arbitrary finish line.
Ben Delaney 46:55
The safety is good. It's not perfect. I mean, the first time I did it, when it was still called a Land Run, I remember being in front of people like 30 or something, we came up to a highway and there was a red light and people looked and then just bolted through. And like the living I am I looked both ways and then ran the red light with everybody else, because we were racing. And it's on open roads. But I mean, part of why these many gravel races exist in small towns is because just logistically it's a lot simpler to pull off. When you're in an employer or a Stillwater than they're, they're up against very different obstacles than like Belgium off road, California and smack in the middle of 60 kajillion people in San Diego County, you know, so that, you know, relatively safe feeling. This
Andrew Vontz 47:53
positive, right? In what would you like to see tried or attempted from an event point of view that you haven't seen done yet, if anything?
Unknown Speaker 48:12
One thing that would be
Ben Delaney 48:13
fun to see, and I don't know how the heck you would do it, which is why I want to see it is a television or streaming video production of some of these big events. And now just before we got on, I was just talking with Ryan cross, who's a marketing director at lifetime, which puts on the Grand Prix about the conundrum of how do you part of what makes gravel racing so cool, is it's out in the middle of nowhere, and it goes on forever. And that's attractive as a challenge for participants. But like how do you make that a compelling story for people who'd want to watch this? Now not just in terms of the storyline, but the logistics of capturing that you know, like it's not the NBA Finals, where you can map map out all your cameras and all your angles in the show unfolds there in front of you in a very finite timeframe like 10 hours out on the Kansas plains how do you how do you do that? So that's that's a different angle that's not from participant standpoint, but from just the spectators name is is gravel. Is there a way to make it a participant to a spectator thing? I'd love to see something like that happen. We'll probably take Red Bull like money of well, we just enlist this fleet of 10,000 drones to get live video coverage.
Unknown Speaker 49:47
I think
Ben Delaney 49:48
others enjoy the fact that there are so many different little events popping up seemingly all over. That gives you an excuse to go check out new places. And I think that's kind of the To the big driving what's next? What's next? It's not so much a course distance or a particular type of elevation or like some weird little bit of single track that's thrown in that's going to make or break the whole race. It's just kind of like this. Snot even satiating, but like the stoking of the your curiosity of what's around this corner what's what's over there? What's in this town? What's this like? And having an excuse to go and see a new place and have someone lay out the welcome mat a bit of like, hey, come to my town. Here's here's this event. There'll be other like minded knuckleheads out there. Going for it to go weigh yourself out get a big shot of endorphins come back and there's beer over there and food over there and time for some swapping some stories. So I think that's that's the compelling what's next thing is like, what's the what's the next town? What's the next event? And that also kind of puts the existing big ones big races in a in a bit of a bind of like, okay, when somebody's done, checked off the bucket list event and gone and done Unbound, like, why you're gonna go back?
That that's it. I'm going back for number five. So what would you like to see in the gravel event?
Andrew Vontz 51:21
I don't know if I get a voice in this debate band? I don't know. Yeah, it's your podcast. Yeah, I mean, I find I've been talking to Spencer Martin, who I co host the beyond the peloton. Podcast with we interviewed Cameron Mason recently. And Cameron is now tearing up the UCI gravel. I don't even know what the name of the series is. I don't know if it's the World Tour series, whatever. But it's the UCI level series. There's been a lot of criticism of that series is like the races are too short to surfaces or to tame. And I think that those people haven't watched video from those events camera just threw up a YouTube video about I think it was the first event of the season that resident grapple star Alejandro of Alberta one. I mean, honestly, what? I'm kind of like going in a different direction here. I think that Alberta is gonna show up at unbound and destroy everyone. So I'm kind of excited about that. I know that a lot of people have mixed feelings about his presence in the sport, and him now reentering the sport after really not retiring. And I think there'll be a lot of sourness, if he shows up and I totally want him to show up in Emporia and I want him to win the race. And I think he's gonna do it. I think he just hasn't announced it yet. So that's something I'm curious about. Like you. i Well, you've actually done like the large, unbound, I guess now there's an even larger amount. There's the unbound XL, but you've done the proper unbound 200 I always did the unbound 100 I got this is like like a sensible person. Yeah. And I that was more than enough for me. I'm really interested in what I would call sprint distance gravel races. And one of the things that I have observed at all of these events, I guess a rescue team says the first one where I've seen people under the age of 25, I saw a handful of young people with parents who are into the sport. Other than that there are no young people participating in gravel that I've seen. And I'd love to hear if you have a different perspective. Say same time. You know, Nike is proliferating everywhere, and I love what that's done to cross country mountain biking. And my personal theory is that we're on the cusp of there being a generational boom and cross country, mountain biking. I think young people have fallen in love with the sport. And I think that that's about to become a big thing. And we're already seeing you know, they're the Kate Courtney's the Christopher Blevins of the world. So there there is this current generation of world class talent. A lot of it coming out of NorCal and Boulder I think that we're about to because of the Waltons and other factors, we're about to see more talent coming from more places than we ever have before. And mountain biking. I think another super trend there is lower participation and traditional collision sports, specifically football. I think we're going to see less and less kids doing that over time. And I'm really I'm really like losing the plot here, Ben, but
Ben Delaney 54:37
we just when you said typical collisions, you were gonna say criteria misses. Yeah, criteria.
Andrew Vontz 54:40
I'm racing, things where people have injuries who wouldn't otherwise only get in a car wreck like bicycle road racing. Yeah, I think that shorter distances are going to be even more prevalent. I think that is the Trojan horse to get young people engaged in the sport because haven't talked to enough young people involved in Nika to know, my guess is the time cost and the base that you need to show up and do 100 or 200 mile gravel race is onerous for a young person, also, perhaps, out of scope for a Tiktok level attention span. And I think that that's what the sport needs to do to have a feeder of bringing people in and participating. I also think that we're about to have a wave of liability related problems for gravel racing and gravel races happening on open roads, it just seems like an inevitability to me. And I think you need a way for these to be safer, and for more people to be able to show up and do them that are people who are older who have time and resources to do it. Like that's the only way it sustains over time, because what I would hate to see happen, which you and I have seen happen in three or four different cycles during the probably 30 plus years, you and I both been involved in the sport, but we you know, we had the norba boom, and the late 80s, early 90s, then that faded out, so it was very difficult to put on those races. You needed specific training environments, then there was this boom in road racing and criterium, racing really took off in the early 2000s Then cyclocross became kind of a big thing. All of these things have expanded and contracted. Gravel is the one because there is this factor similar to running or triathlon, where a lot of people are, just as you said, they're just wanting to show up and complete the event, which is an unusual thing. In the history of mass participation, cycling events, I guess there were grandfathers before that, but I don't know. I was never really part of that personally.
Ben Delaney 56:47
Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, we need need kids, for sure. It was a shot in arms would be at sea otter and see all the Groms riding wheelies around everywhere. So yeah, mountain biking, that's still an attractive thing. If there were younger kids on gravel bikes out there, I didn't see him. So yeah, like you got a great point of making the sport accessible and appealing, price wise, as well as distance wise. And that's, you know, tricky with the okay, what's the challenge challenge to whom she you know, there's a bit of a issue of one upsmanship with some of these events of like, Nick, why is 100 miles the Oh, I'm just doing the 100 miles. Like what that 100 is a lot. 100 is a lot of miles, it's too many miles, right. But as events kind of leapfrogging each other into being like the biggest bit gnarliest most terrifying challenge of all, as a competitive thing between each other that can be certainly off putting to someone who's just looking at
Unknown Speaker 58:03
doing a gravel event for the first time.
Ben Delaney 58:08
I guess the bigger events have multiple distances
Unknown Speaker 58:13
built in.
Ben Delaney 58:17
See, the safety is a is a trickier, a trickier one. And the and that part of what gravel as a culture loves to tout is you know, it's no rules. We're not beholden to USA Cycling Federation, the feds, the government telling us what to do with their dang rules. And yes, there are rules there. But there's also things like insurance and safety guidelines and some best practices built into what the feds are doing. Because that's not a popular opinion. But I do think there's a lot of value from like an event participation standpoint. And taking some collective learning over the years, some very hard earned through tragedy. And try to come up with a way that we can Yeah, put I have a lot of people out there on roads with where their vehicles and keep everybody safe. So yeah, I don't I don't know what the magic solution is there. But trying to be too cool for school or rules. When people's lives are literally on the line, as you said is perhaps not the best way forward. In all instances.
Andrew Vontz 59:30
You know, you mentioned Nick leagan. And when I think of Nick, I think of I'm just kind of like thinking in the direction of the maximalist direction of the super long things like unbound XL trip double XL TRX I don't even know what it's called now. There's stuff like that. And then there are things like the Atlas Mountains race, which I've watched a lot of YouTube videos about that I'm hoping to have someone on soon, who is a participant. Do those types of events holding the appeal for you or you just kind of like get to hundreds of Max the That's good enough for me. Yeah,
Ben Delaney 1:00:02
not really much appeal. And again, I'm careful about saying that because I've said that about all these other things I've found myself doing. But my friend, Betsy Welsh, who's a great writer, and great writer. She categorizes people as like inside dogs and outside dogs. And she's an outside dog where she'll I think she's on a tour right now in Spain with like, you know, maybe a pair of shorts and flip flops and a credit card and her bike pack and she's just off riding her face off sleeping, wherever.
I'm a soft person, I like to come back to you know, four walls and a shower and a bid. And that's kind of where I am. So no, not not It shouldn't you
Andrew Vontz 1:00:47
know, I'm good. I'm good to go. I just I don't have time for something like that at this point in my life. Yeah.
Ben Delaney 1:00:56
Well, and also like, what, you know, parents, like we've, we don't have to imagine what like what extreme fatigue feels like. And like grinding it out day after day with little sleep. Like that's been the reality for many years. For many of us like that. We've got that experience. Okay.
Andrew Vontz 1:01:11
It's prime gravel training. I don't know if fast cat has a program that integrates being a parent of small children to help you get adapted to what might happen during your gravel race. But that's, that's true, Ben. Yeah, absolutely. So we talked about this a little bit, we talked about some of the ideas that you have for where you wanted to take the YouTube channel and what you're doing but as you look ahead, is there anything even bigger that you have in mind or that you're pursuing? Are you just kind of taking this one step at a time
Ben Delaney 1:01:45
I would love to get to a point where I can not just make it a sustainable thing for me but have other people working with me some for selfish reasons, because I enjoy the collaborative work of making creative stuff together. That's more pie in the sky. But yeah, that's ultimately where I'd like to be to start put a website together just kind of as a place marker of sorts, the ride dot bike.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:17
But yes,
Ben Delaney 1:02:22
job job one is making the right on YouTube. My full time thing with primarily gravel and some road content, where I'm talking about stuff, but also talking to people because like we're talking about like, that's, that's an enjoyable part for me, and I hope
Unknown Speaker 1:02:41
that can be viable commercially.
Ben Delaney 1:02:47
For lack of a better term.
Andrew Vontz 1:02:49
Yeah. And Ben, I remember when you had the idea for the ride, and you kind of circulated I think it was a beta video before, not not beta max for anyone who's better that Ben and I know what a Betamax video cassette is, and that it was in a format war with VHS early in our youth when watching Goonies at a at a birthday party was like a really big deal because someone had a VCR. But that's, I'm talking more about a an experimental version of a product. So Ben, you had created a beta version of a video, you'd circulated it to people. So I remember from the very earliest days, I thought what you were doing was cool, I thought you would have huge success. It's been awesome to watch you get traction and product market fit with what you're doing. And I know that you have even bigger things that how do you so Thanks, Ben, for taking time to join me here today. Thanks for putting out your awesome videos. And it's been great to have you here man.
Ben Delaney 1:03:46
Thanks very much, man. I appreciate all your kind words and and your ongoing support and was an honor to chat with you today.