Ben Kovacs: Guardian Gym Founder, Serial Entrepreneur, BJJ Black Belt
As a black belt and entrepreneur, Ben Kovacs wanted to make Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu more accessible. He founded Guardian Gym, a nonprofit dedicated to providing jiu-jitsu scholarships and training to young people around the world.
Ben joins our host Andrew Vontz to discuss the intersection of good intentions and reality, and what it takes to build a lasting and effective nonprofit.
Ben received his black belt under Eduardo Fraga, previously worked at Twitter, and is an entrepreneur who has launched companies including Lifted View and the EA Mafia.
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Guardian has a unique strategy of using adult memberships to fund free youth after-school programs, while also providing affordable martial arts classes to the entire community. Since opening in Oakland, Guardian has scaled into an international model that places and pays for kids to join their local jiu jitsu academies in LA, Baltimore, Mongolia, Peru and beyond.
Co-host Blake Kasemeier is a Brazilian jiu-jitsu brown belt and friend of Guardian. He has been a guest on previous Choose the Hard Way episodes and you can find his videos on TikTok @blakeoftoday.
To learn more about Guardian Gym, follow them at @guardiangym on all platforms.
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Choose the Hard Way is a podcast where guests share stories about how hard things build stronger humans. Sign up for the newsletter to get the story behind these stories updates and more. If you’d like to suggest a guest or say hello, DM @hardwaypod on social or send an email to choosethehardway@gmail.com.
Host Andrew Vontz has spent more than 25 years telling and shaping the stories of the world’s top performers, brands and businesses. He has held executive and senior leadership roles at the social network for athletes Strava and the human performance company TRX. His byline has appeared in outlets like Rolling Stone, Outside magazine, The Los Angeles Times and more.
Today he advises and consults with businesses and nonprofits on high-impact storytelling strategies and coaches leaders to become high-performance communicators. Find him on LinkedIn or reach out to choosethehardway@gmail.com
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Ben 5:48
Oh, man, a lot for sure. So I mean, first of all, Joel and I started guardian in 2015, when we were working together at Twitter, and neither of us had any experience running a nonprofit or running a gym, right. And the original idea for Guardian was to build this gym in Oakland, offer it to both kids and adults, the adults could pay a flexible membership likely more affordable than other gyms in the area, the kids were trained for free. And we wanted the adults as well as the kids because we felt like the adults would become natural mentors to the kids on the mat. You know, with that being said, I always knew in the back of my mind that this wasn't really a scalable model. And we weren't going to be able to put gyms all over the country and all over the world. And of course, as someone who was working in tech and doing this other stuff, and the rest of my life, I always kind of felt this, this, this weird thing there where I knew that wasn't necessarily like the right model to help help the most amount of kids. But with any new business venture, you kind of have to start small and do kind of the unscalable things to learn and build it up. So, you know, I guess what I'm saying is, I almost knew that it wasn't the right model for the beginning. But we had to take our lumps we had to learn, we had to start to kind of build guardian in organic, natural way, versus trying to kind of scale it from from day one. I think the thing that I probably would have done differently, like more tactically, is we tried to do way too many things. We were doing boxing, we were doing kickboxing, we had food programs for the kids, we had jujitsu, obviously for the kids. And jujitsu was always my passion. And I was kind of compromising with everybody, because you know, one of the other staff members wanted to do a weightlifting program for the kids. And, you know, one of the staff wanted to have the boxing program. And what I should have probably done is just kept it more focused and said, Hey, we're just going to do this one thing, or we're just going to do these two things, not the six things and providing kids after school jujitsu for free, is just hard enough in itself. Besides trying to run food programs and trying to do all these other things. Have an on staff psychologist to help the kids and things like that we were doing a lot, basically, so would do less. And I would have quickly, more quickly scaled to the version that we have today of guardian, which is essentially partnering with other gyms around the world who already have mat space, they don't have insurance, they already have a passionate instructor, they already have a Kids program. And now we're going in and saying, Listen, you already have all these things. But you have extra mat space, how can we put a guardian program into what you're already doing, where you can actually raise more money to support your gym, cover your overhead while getting more kids into the program to train. So I just would have moved I think a little bit quicker instead of trying to keep like all the different stakeholders happy in the organization.
Andrew Vontz 8:36
And then I've heard you talk at length on a number of other podcasts about the actual origin of the business, nonprofit, rather, why you got started? And then what that trajectory was like with what you just described? I'm curious was there given your background and the partner that you were working with? What was your vision for the original minimum viable product or what was like the first atomic unit that you tested before you started to bolt on all of these other things? And then it sounds like you kind of started to sprawl and then you had to edit back down. But what was the first thing you started with?
Ben 9:13
The first thing was just open it up. You know, we rented a space in Oakland, we opened up a regular martial arts gym. We started with the boxing and the jujitsu. And we had really no plan, right? We were putting flyers at the farmers market. We were posting things on social media, you know, we had signs out in front of the building. And that was a big mistake. You know, I made almost like any business, they say you should have your distribution strategy first, or you should have your distribution channels and then start your business. We didn't really have that. So it was more, this long slog for the first six to nine months just to kind of get going and you can't have a successful gym if you don't have people in there to train with other people. So getting those first 20 students was really hard and took a long time. Of course going back I would do that very differently now to try to speed that process up. And I think that's why the guys who have The big names in martial arts, the guys who are winning these big tournaments and stuff, it's a lot easier for them to start a gym, right, because they already have a following online, they already have this sort of credential at the door. But because I wasn't a world class, Jujitsu athlete, I was like, Hey, I'm the guy who's going to do the marketing, kind of create the nonprofit, I'm gonna hire people to actually teach the classes who are better than me. And I'll focus on this other stuff. Because my, my theory was always that a lot of the gyms you had somebody who was great at martial arts, but they were terrible at running the business terrible at the marketing, I kind of tried to flip that around and say, I won't be the teacher, but I'll be the guy who handles kind of the business aspect and will pay the teachers which is really the inverse to most gyms.
Andrew Vontz 10:37
So that zero to one or cold start problem sounds like it was one of the hardest aspects of getting to where you wanted to go. If you were to do it differently today, how might you approach that cold start or just getting things up and running?
Ben 10:51
Well, I think in the case of if you wanted to compare apples to apples to how we did it, I would definitely have preceded, I think a lot more demand leading up to once we found our building space, that time from kind of the build out and the things we had to do to get ready. And when we were actually opening up the classes, it would have been going around and trying to get pre reservations with the kids getting adults to sign up doing whatever promos it took to get it in there. So that way, even if you weren't making a lot of revenue at the beginning, you would at least have bodies and warm bodies in the door and training partners to scale from and we probably could have sped up six months or so if we had we had done that better. Like I said, a few minutes ago though our model is different now in the sense that we're going into these gyms now that already have existing programs already have adult members already have something established. So we don't really have that problem as much anymore, because now kids are walking into a program that already has other kids training teachers that already have a curriculum, they already have all these things going. So that cold start problem is not there anymore. Now as soon as we identify a kid who can be helped by the program, we can fool them into something that's already working, which is just obviously infinitely better than where we were when we started guardian in 2015.
Andrew Vontz 11:58
And what resulted in you shifting to the new model? And how did you start testing it or implementing it?
Ben 12:06
Well, here's something that I always wanted to do, right pretty quickly after we actually started. And I recognize the problems with running a gym, I actually met my wife and moved over to the other side of the bay. And so for me, I was kind of far away from the gym logistically as well, which was another challenge for me. And we had, you know, really great staff who were doing different things, you know, our jujitsu teacher was really great. I had another guy that was helping me to run things, we had volunteers who were starting to show up and do different things like photography and videography, and help with the kids classes, we really had a great kind of little thing going in a small space, where we started to go off the rails is right before COVID. So let's say COVID started in in March of what March of 2020. Only about three or four months before that we moved from our small 1500 square foot space to an 8000 square foot sort of mega gym that Blake's familiar with in Oakland. And the idea is we could just have way more kids in there. We can be running multiple classes at one time, we can have, you know, weightlifting while jujitsu classes going on. While there was boxing going on in the ring. It was a really kind of epic space. Then COVID happened. And everything just sort of fell apart, right? Because we had 15 different stakeholders in the organization, right? We had the different people teaching the different classes, the other administrators and everybody had a different idea of how a gym should run during COVID. Right. And obviously the Bay Area was one of the most lockdown, I would say kind of areas, right? It wasn't one of those areas. That was just everybody was kind of like Texas, where they were just free wheeling during COVID. Everybody was very sensitive for the most part yet we had certain groups within the gym who wanted to just have like free for all training still. And so everyone was mad at me, right? Like the people that didn't want to have anybody in the gym. were mad at me, the people who want to train all the time that had to wear masks, they were pissed at me. And you know, I'm just the guy live in an hour away working at a nonprofit for free that I started to give kids free jujitsu. And now all of a sudden, I'm like public enemy number one from every angle, right? And I felt it was like it was a really, it was a really telling experience of kind of who the people were that were on the team and who's who was there for the right reasons, because they were more flexible, I felt like but we just had certain people who sort of developed these cliques and they wanted to like just fight everything tooth and nail. And finally I just stepped stepped back and thought, if everybody wants to be upset about this, and no one's happy with it, and everybody wants to kind of run their own personal training now and do their own thing with their own friends. And they've kind of forgotten the mission of why we're here which is to help as many kids as possible in Oakland, an area that definitely needs help with the kids. Why am I doing this right? Like I'm spending all these money paying these instructors to complain all day, not not that all the instructors are paying but Few kind of loud ones and staff members who just really couldn't, I felt like move on with, with the reality that we're facing, I thought, Well, now's the perfect time that, you know, we should change the model, right? We shouldn't, it just kind of brought everything to light of all the pain of the model that we had with all that overhead of the space, the the pain of trying to keep all these instructors happy. And let's, let's use our money most efficiently to get back to focusing on what we do, which has helped the most amount of kids possible. And we had this data point by that time, which was our school in Baltimore, separate guardian in Baltimore. And their cost per student was, I don't know, a fifth to a 10th of our cost per student in Oakland, because of the overhead there. And I don't know about you, but it's like, I don't view like necessarily, I don't want to spend five times as much money for a kid in Oakland than I do for a kid in Baltimore, to me a kid as a kid. And if we could use our money as an organization more efficiently, we should be moving that money as any business would. Elon Musk talks about it all the time. At a core, he's really a capital allocator. Right, he raises money, he puts money into ventures, and he can do that more efficiently than the next guy. That's why Tesla that's why SpaceX wins that like he's sitting there designing every rocket and doing all the physics for the company. He's an allocator of capital. And I view Guardian as an allocator of capital we bring money in. And my main goal is to help the most amount of kids possible. And I felt like during COVID, we, it became clear that we weren't doing that with the space we had in Oakland, and it was time to shift course for the future.
Andrew Vontz 16:29
And then when you were in the middle of that experience, and things started to get really complex, it sounds like it was emotionally complex, the business started to get overly complex, you're having operational challenges, how did you go from being in the middle of that problem to stepping back? Doing an analysis and then taking action? And how did that feel for you to see this thing you put so much love and energy into? end up in that situation?
Ben 17:01
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was actually, to be honest, a pretty brutal experience. Because, you know, I think that a lot of the people that were working at the gym, were not only just co workers, but a lot of us were, you know, very close friends, we did a lot of stuff, you know, off the mats, you know, I saw a lot of people kind of grow up from, you know, six, seven years of kind of being with the organization and, you know, meet their now wives and, you know, make new relationships and make new friends. But it was tough, because I feel like people kind of had to pick pick sides in some way. And they had to have, you know, different scapegoats and people to blame for that. So it was, it was certainly a tough, tough thing. But I would say that the one thing that's that's helped me is, I've never looked at the organization as this thing to give back to me and this thing to fulfill my life. And I do think there was some folks who were so all in on Guardian that it became this thing, like Guardian was their purpose in life. And that was like, really, really awesome in some ways, because I feel like it drove a lot of energy and a lot of passion, and a lot of positivity through the organization. But then when things started to go the other way, it became a huge problem. And all of a sudden, the things that were fine the first few years, let's say, of working with the organization once once they started to go the other way, and there's going to be those challenges, all of a sudden was like, I'm not getting back from the organization, what I'm putting in, and it's like, well, you can't expect you know, this, this, you know, time in timeout thing, dollar in dollar out thing, whatever way you want to quantify it, you're essentially doing this pretty selfless thing helping kids and you're not getting a lot back, right? The city's not complimenting you, you know, a few parents, you know, might give you a pat on the back back now. And then a few adult students might give you a thumbs up or make a donation and recognize the work that you're doing. But it's like a 50 to one, what you're putting in versus what you're getting out. And I feel like I'm very lucky because I have a really awesome wife, you know, I have a young child who is now five, who was you know, call it two or three at the time 123. I don't know what he was when all this is starting to happen. But it wasn't something I was looking for the organization to be my everything. So it allowed me to say, look, I've got a great life, I've got these other things to worry about, I have to make a more prudent decision for the organization of like, what's best and not this sort of emotional decision of, hey, like, we got to keep 15 Different friend groups happy here. So I don't know if that's a great answer to your question. But I think it was just like not being so you cannot you can't be so attached to the thing and be expecting it to be be your everything. If you're going to make the smart sort of business, if you will decisions about about the organization.
Andrew Vontz 19:38
What was new or different about operating in a nonprofit environment as a leader versus the manner in which you would operate in a business capacity or within the jobs that you had in tech? Were they analogous or do you have to find new ways of working new ways of managing people in teams?
Ben 19:58
Well, I think the thing that I was just talking to I was the biggest thing, which is that like, when you're in a company, everybody, there's definitely you know, egos to massage. There's definitely problems that that arise, there's definitely soft skills of dealing with things. People are human. You know, it's not just about spreadsheets and dollars and cents and robots and AI, right? There's a very human element to working at a big company like Twitter where I used to work at, for example. I think that the nonprofit is a little weird, because it's not everybody has a very different reason and a very different motivation of why they're involved with it. And you know, my feeling, although maybe controversial, is that we're all really selfish people, right? In general, we all do things selfishly, for our own good. And the good might be a decent reason, meaning like, I want to help kids with martial arts, but at the end of the day, part of that is because it makes me feel good about myself, right? It makes me feel good, like, justifying my place in the world. And hopefully, like, when I die someday, I'm like, okay, like, I did something good for somebody, you know, I help the kids. So it's, it's it is even the unselfish stuff is kind of selfish. And I think if you're practical about it, and you look at it, that from that angle, you know, there's there's some, there's some reality there that actually helps you to make decisions. But yeah, I think I struggle with that part of the nonprofit have sort of the really, really soft skills of constantly trying to find. So we're constantly trying to find the confirmation between all the different parties that everybody's on the same page and do deal with the city governments or, you know, these local foundations are the people that really have all these political interests and emotional interest attached to it. You know, like, I think that it's very hard to navigate. I think that's why you see a lot of people that are running these organizations have a lot more soft skills than I do as far as like, you know, their patients and how they massage all these these local interests, if you will, to keep their nonprofit afloat and going, where I'm more just like, hey, like, it's black and white, we're helping people, like, we need to raise money, we got to do this, we got to do this, like, what you're just kind of go down the line in a more practical fashion versus the soft skills of running a nonprofit?
Andrew Vontz 22:11
What is the experience that you want to bring the kids who are in the program? What do you hope to achieve with what you're doing?
Ben 22:18
I think the number one thing I think about is opportunity, right? And we can't make a kid, train hard, once they're on the mat. We can't make them continue to come back to class, the thing that I think we can provide, as we open more and more Guardian locations around the world is we can provide kids an opportunity to get started in martial arts and find a passion. And that's, that's really, I think, the most important thing, because I look at kids when they get in trouble when they're 18 or 19, let's say 2017, whatever their age is, and I always my first question is always like, did that kid have an opportunity, and you look at some of their stories of like, you know, they didn't have any parents or, you know, their mom was selling drugs when they were 12. And they were forced to, you know, go work or do something, I'm like, That poor kid did not have an opportunity to like, have a fair crack at it, right? Like, I was fortunate, I got to play sports growing up, I had two loving parents, I got to go, you know, they helped me push me to go to college. And that kind of whatever I do with my life after that, it was like, I had the opportunity. And I think that's the biggest thing that we need to start focusing on is giving kids an opportunity. And in this case, specifically, what jujitsu it's like it shouldn't be an elitist sport, where it costs too much money for a kid to get on the mat and train, if they try it. And they don't want to come back totally fine. But let's at least open the doors for kids, whether it's through guardian and what we're doing, or whether it's through other after school programs, and nonprofits and other ways that we can help them so at least when that kid makes a poor decision, or that adult young adult makes a poor decision someday it wasn't because he didn't have an opportunity.
Andrew Vontz 23:49
And when people come into contact with Guardian, the vibe, of course, is different. And you know, whether you go into a jujitsu school, you're going to a gym, you're you know, for me, I'm a cyclist going out on a group ride, go into a race, every community has a slightly different vibe, what is the vibe that you want people to experience in the community that you're building?
Ben 24:15
Well, keep in mind that we now have seven schools, seven academies around the world. So you know, the vibe, if you will, is going to be slightly different depending on you know, where you go, which I think is a good thing. The vibe that in general that I think we want to have is we want to have a place that's, that's welcoming. A place that, you know, again, gives that opportunity and a place that allows people to connect and make friendships and find those opportunities off the mat as well. Right? And I think that's a big key to what jujitsu is for a lot of people like Blake and I is it's not just a place where you go and get beat up and choke other people and things like that. It's meeting a positive friend group, right? And you know, I can probably tell a lot about you and you can Until a lot about other people by just the 510 people that they hang around with the most right, there's a very high likelihood that you're going to turn into something very similar to those people. And by having positive mentors on the mat when you step in, and having people that are eating healthy, who are coming to the gym and exercising, having a forced to break from screen time, I think all those type of things lead to a happier, healthier, more positive life. So that's sort of like that vibe. And that opportunity, if you will, that we want to create when you when you come and do to a guardian are really what I think people want. Anybody who owns or operates jujitsu gyms wants to create, right? That's what keeps people coming back to it. And, you know, we're really not too dissimilar from like, non athletic endeavors, right? We want kids to get healthier grades, we want them to be better listeners, we want them to be more patient, we want them to have better friends, like, everyone's kind of trying to do the same thing. We're just choosing this avenue of jujitsu and of martial arts to give people a path to get there because I don't think kids want to go to school for eight hours a day and then go talk to a fucking guidance counselor for two hours after school about some, you know, more books they should read, like they need to get their energy out. They need to, you know, clear their mind. It's almost like you know, yoga is really to clear your mind before meditation and why it was originally designed, right? Or when people started doing it. I think of martial arts and specifically jujitsu as the same thing.
Andrew Vontz 26:23
And what is your jujitsu practice like today? Personally?
Ben 26:27
No, not good.
Andrew Vontz 26:32
Tell me about your practice.
Ben 26:36
I I have a weird jujitsu journey, I guess you would say that I've never. I've always trained at really great schools. I've trained I started the Yamasaki Academy in DC when I lived there, moved out to the bay started training at half Gracie and Berkeley then I started working at Twitter in San Francisco. So I started training in the city with Colonel Sander at half Gracie San Francisco. And so I've like trained at these sort of, like really well known big schools with tons of high level people, but I never would go to competitions. And part of the reason for that was because one of my best friends who won the white belt World Championships about six months after I started training, I got him into it, he hurt his back from overtraining and over competing. And he's never been able to train since I know, it's been a huge bummer in his life, you know, because he was really, it was really his favorite thing in the world. And I kind of made this conscious decision then that, you know, I really wanted to try my focus was not going to be about winning a tournament this year, it was going to be about how could I be on the mat when I'm 75 years old. And so I've sort of structured my jujitsu that way. And I've caught a lot of flack from you know, some of my friends and of course, teachers have, like, you need to be competing, and you need to be doing this. But my thought was, I'm kind of competing every day that I come in every day that we spar, so I don't need to you know, spend the resources, the time the money traveling to these tournaments, but also kind of be taking that additional risk of injury if my ultimate goal is to be on the mat when I'm 75. And now I trained at the at mostly at coyote Terra because of proximity to where I am in Menlo Park. And I go down to what they call their competition class, which is like a 1pm class that has collective 25 or so World Champions champion metals on the mat every day. And it's like, pretty, pretty brutal, like I'm lucky if I win, you know, half of one round and one training session. So that's, that's kind of my my training now. And then I go around to other gyms and see friends, like, you know, somebody, like Blake will say, Oh, I'm training down at the school, you know, open mat on Sunday, and I'll pop in there and train because it's, I think, not only fun for me to kind of stay connected with friends and the community, but it's also good for guardian to kind of keep, you know, meeting new people meeting going to new gyms, things like that. So really hard competition style training, but also sort of like this flexible, you know, go around and train other places a lot, too.
Blake 28:53
Yeah, Ben's a fucking savage. Yeah, just for context. So you know, yeah,
Ben 28:59
I don't know about that. In the kids classes, maybe?
Andrew Vontz 29:03
Yeah, I bet Ben part of I have some knowledge of jujitsu. I'm not a practitioner, although I do want to point out that, Blake, Blake, I think I was at Blake's first ever jujitsu class, probably unless Blake does a lot of secret training. So you may have gone to something before that. But was that your first ever jujitsu class? But yeah,
Blake 29:23
you were dude.
Andrew Vontz 29:24
Yeah. And I know enough to know, Ben, that some of the schools you're describing are gladiator schools like so you. You did a lot of training it very intense, and very intense environments where there are people going extremely hard. So to hear you say you want to be able to do jujitsu until you're 75. Some of the schools that you named are the ones that I would think that if I wanted to do that, so what specifically about how you would approach rolling or your practice of jujitsu when you're going into an environment? How do you approach that with that intention of like, I want to be doing this for a long time, I don't want to get injured. When you have people going really hard. At least that would be my perception of what you described.
Ben 30:12
Man, I'm probably gonna get me in trouble with this one. I feel like I've been saying too much on this podcast. But
Andrew Vontz 30:17
if I'm if I'm wrong, too, because like, I'm out of my depth here, if you guys are actual, very high level practitioners, I'm an observer.
Ben 30:24
I know I'm kind of just laughing inside because like, this is stuff I think about a lot. But I'm definitely not the norm to be clear, right? Like most people, I'll start off by saying what most people do and then when I do most people go to a gym and they have this sort of hero worship, right? Their teacher is their new god of life. And a lot of teachers unfortunately in jujitsu think that because they're a black belt in jujitsu, that they're a black belt in life. And it's, it's very, it's almost like the worse they are in life. The the more they want to tell you how great they are, right? You do find a lot of great teachers like I think, you know, Blake's old teacher hummelo is probably a good example of just like really awesome at jujitsu, very confident. Very chill, like, didn't need to preach to his students about you know, how great he was in life and how he, everyone needed to listen to him. He would tell his students like go train at other schools, when you move, you know, all these things, just like a really perfect example, I think of what a jujitsu teacher kind of could and should be, right? There's lots of those guys out there. But there's a lot of like, bad guys to their almost running like these, like mini cults, you know, and my thing is, like, I just have never had this, like, hero worship, right? If I meet a celebrity or meet a jujitsu teacher, it's like, until you prove that you're like this amazing human that I need to dedicate my life to, like, I can respect you, and you know, totally, you know, play in within the sphere. But just because like you say something doesn't mean I have to run out and do it. And I've always had this attitude of like, I don't trust everything, just because you're the jujitsu teacher, or just because you're on the school or whatever. Like, I still want to be my own person, right? And I have this all the time where people say, like, oh, I can't go train at this other gym, my teacher be mad. I'm like, What the fuck are you talking about? Like, go find it. If your teacher talks to you like that, then fuck him. And fuck that school, right? Like, go find another gym and train there. If you don't agree with that. Like, why are you listening? Why are you a 30 year old grown man, listen to some guy tell you where you can go this weekend and where you can train to me that is just like, fucking ludicrous, right? And I know, that's how jujitsu was back in the day when like, one teacher came to America. And then there was five and there was six black belts, like it was very, like, secretive and whatever. But we're not like that anymore. Right? Everybody knows. And if you go to a place like San Diego, everybody's training at different schools and going to different open mats, like that time has passed when like, you know, you need to do this sort of like cult hero worship style jujitsu. Right now, if you are in that situation that's of your own doing, in my opinion, like you've signed up for that type of thing. So to get to your question about how to stay safe, I think the first thing is, you have to just be like super brutally honest with yourself about who you want to train with. Right? So 250 pound crazy guy and his first day comes up to you and says, Hey, like, do you want to roll? For me? The answer is like, Hey, dude, like, I'll roll with you later. But like, I need to go warm up first. I'm 41 years old, like, I'm gonna go roll with Blake, you know, I trust Blake, you know, we're the right size for each other, you know, whatever the situation is, but a lot of people won't do that. They're just like, oh, like, he asked me to roll Oh, he's a higher belt, you know, oh, I don't want to be embarrassed. Oh, my teachers making fun of me. So like, I think you just have to just really think about yourself in that situation, as bad as that sounds, and make sure that you're prioritizing, like your health and safety. You know, before you're kind of falling into the trap of the tough guy, the tough guy syndrome, right? When you get hurt on the mat. I've seen this happen 100 times, right? The tough guy that didn't want to say no to the other tough guy or whatever, they get hurt and somebody like throws them an icepack. You know, like, Do you need any help? And then all of a sudden, you'll see that guy for six months. Nobody pays their bills, nobody goes to their house and cook some food. Nobody helps them with their kid. Like, it's like kind of sucks, right? It's it's not a it's not a good long term decision. So sorry, Blake.
Blake 34:12
Yeah, no, no, I was just gonna say that that perspective is, is not unlike your I mean, not to tie this back to, to what we were talking about earlier. But, you know, kind of swallowing your pride and saying, Hey, I don't need to have the gym like I don't need to have the physical Guardian location in order for this organization to do what it needs to do is a very similar attitude, right? So like, the fact that you didn't necessarily want to be the receiver of that same sort of like hero worship that you see at a gym even though you know, you're not the head instructor or guardian. You're still a force in the community and you were still forced at that gym. And so like, I think that that same perspective about like, how, you know, we're not going to just say that this one gym is one physical space, it's one instructor you As the end all be all of our sport, and we're completely loyal to it, like, You're loyal to yourself and to your practice of jujitsu. And so that allows you actually to become better. Same way with like guardian, like it allows that that mission to serve more people. It's an interesting point of view and it is one that is like, it is you unique, or at least it's modern in terms of the way like jujitsu is today.
Ben 35:25
Yeah, no, I think. I think you're, it's interesting point that you you drew to like, I mean, I definitely, I definitely will admit that I mean, I like certain things about being able to walk in the gym and you know, people say hi to you, and you know, your kid gets special treatment because you're like the guy who founded it, so he gets a place to train everybody's nice to him. You know, there's definitely like perks right to like having that physical space. But yeah, I've always like I watch a lot of Mafia history. I'm really infatuated with the mafia for some reason I watched like all the YouTube documentaries on like the New York mob and stuff and I've always like admired the guys who never got caught and they were like the behind the scenes quiet guys that like nobody really knew about until later. And they had they made all the money and they had all the power. And they, they were very careful. And then you have like the John Gotti who came along and he's just kind of like out there, puffing his chest out want to the fame and the fortune and it didn't really work out so well for him. And I've always thought like, I want to be like the old school guys, the guy who kind of is behind the scenes, who's pulling the strings who's making it happen, who can show up, but it's not doesn't have to kind of be the face and have the pressure of that. And you know, Dave clay hand has been a good example of me, the guy who owns half Gracie Berkeley, a lot of people, the new students, because Dave can't train anymore because he's older and has has health issues. A lot of the new students don't even know who Dave is, which is sad. But you know, Dave bought that building. He, you know, he put the gym there, he helped them Eduardo, who's the awesome teacher there from Brazil, come to America and set all that up, you know, not necessarily just because he wanted to make money, but really, he just had like a real passion for jujitsu in the community. And he was a successful guy with his other endeavors. And he's kind of like that scary, soft spoken guy. Right? Who, you know, what's it called? Talk, talk, carry a big stick, like, talk softly but carry a big stick, whatever that saying is that Teddy Roosevelt saying, that's what I think about Dave and I always kind of wanted to pattern myself after that of like, hey, like, have a big impact, but you don't need to, like, have your picture all over the wall and be you know, the guy in every video type thing.
Andrew Vontz 37:37
A question for both you guys because I know Blake at least whenever he travels, he's going to a new gym. And Ben, I don't know if do you do the same thing? When you're traveling? Do you just hit up new gyms and train with new people? For sure. So when you go into a context like that, I'm imagining that at least part of the time you might end up with that. gyms or schools where there is the hero worship thing going on? And it's not quite what you're looking for. What do you do when you're in a situation like that? And what can you learn in those situations? Or have you all when you're traveling? Have you ended up training in a gym like that? I know Blake, you have the I might get to move around. Was it the flying triangle that happened to you? Yeah, tell. Tell that story, please.
Blake 38:24
Oh, yeah, for sure. I just first of all, like and this is not just because Ben's here i strategy that I actually take is I always travel with Guardian merch so I always travel with a guardian tank or a guardian t shirt. And if I walk into a gym and someone recognizes that then I know it's like it's a signal to them and it's a signal to me that like okay, that's what this guy is about like this guy is about this shit and and I get recognized and Guardian gear all the time. Same thing with like on social media on Tik Tok like it is a signal to people that like that's what I'm about in this sport. And I think it's
Andrew Vontz 39:00
people that your does it tell people that you're most or what is it?
Blake 39:03
That I'm super OHSs No, just that like you know I I believe that jujitsu should be made accessible for everyone you know that I think that that supporting children in this sport particularly kids who can't couldn't afford this you know initially and and also like, structurally sorry like in the broader like in the historical context of jujitsu jiu jitsu has always been for the elite class. Like we always talk about oh jiu jitsu is for everyone jiu jitsu for everyone. If you read like hexans biography, it's it's for the aristocracy. It's for the people who could afford to have like privates or pay for instructors to fly over from Japan to teach them this martial art. So the idea that it could it could and should be free for children is like, is you know, in the context of jujitsu, maybe not now, but like in the history of it is a very revolutionary idea. Anyway, So yeah, so I think we're in Guardian merchant to walk into a gym gives people the signal that like, Hey, this guy is not, you know, going to be whatever as as absorbed in that like, he absorbed that hero worship but anyways, yeah the flying triangle story i i was like on a short trip to LA and it was like a Sunday and there's you know, there's not usually a Sunday open mat anywhere and I found one gym that was open that happened to be like a mile away from my mom's house didn't do a ton of research, I went down there. There's only one of the dudes in the gym. He's another blue belt, which I'm like, Okay, I was a little bit all the time, like, cool. And like, I'm doing like my, like, super cool guy pre competition warm up, like, you know, looking puking. Like, you know what I mean? Send a message. And
Andrew Vontz 40:47
what does that look like? Like, does that more aggressive shrimping or like what goes?
Blake 40:53
Well, like, you know, if you're if you're like shadow wrestling, right? Like, if you're like sprawling and taking shots and like doing stuff on your feet, it does look a little bit more aggressive than like, say you're just like, you know, doing doing the I'm about to go run stretch. You know what I mean? Like the like, you know, you know, so anyways, and so yeah, slap hands with this kid. And like, within the first five seconds of the of our roll, I don't even know this guy's name just jumps flying triangle. And I was like, holy shit. Like, that's, that's very aggressive. Like, that's definitely sending a message. And he was like, literally, he was like,
Andrew Vontz 41:27
Can you explain what that is like, because 90% of people listening have no idea what what
Blake 41:33
a triangle is. So like, imagine like the most like the most dramatic pole dancing movie you've ever seen. But the pole is like my neck. And this person jumped up in the air, and wrap their legs around my neck and my arm to try and strangle me with, you know, between my shoulder and my carotid artery, and then hanging there. So like, we go from, hey, I don't even know your name to I'm flying through the air with my legs wrapped around your head, your face. Which is like not uncommon. I mean, you know, that's a position that we would get into, but it's so like, it's so aggressive anyways, and so then I like Luckily, I was significantly bigger than this guy, and I have a decent triangle escape. So, like the triangle escape that a Bluebell has is very aggressive. It is. It's like, okay, cool. I'm gonna drop kind of all my body weight on you. I'm going to smash you until you let go with your legs. And then like I moved over and tapped him, right? And so I'm like, okay, cool. Like, we got that out of the way. slap hands just again, exact same setup, exact same move, and I responded with the exact same way. It has happened like three times. It's like, okay, this is your this is your fucking thing, I guess. And if he didn't tap me with any of those. And then like the sixth time, he actually did another flying move of flying Camorra where he like, I started it on my butt. And he jumped over me and then any tap me there. And then like our whole training session lasted about 15 minutes before he was like completely exhausted and done. But yeah, and then his instructor didn't do shit. Like his instructor was sitting there the whole time. Like looking at us being like, yeah, alright, that's cool. And, and I went back home, and I told my professor about it. And hello, hoo, been mentioned, and like, a great jujitsu lesson. So hello, that mean, the first question you asked me is did you tap? Which, you know, like, wow, eventually? But the second question, yeah, I was like, Hey, what did his professor do? And I was like, Ah, he just sat there. And he's just like, Hmm, like, you can never imagine running an academy, watching this happen. And not intervening in some way as your student is like, you know, whatever. Making a terrible name for your place, but it was, yeah, it's the flying triangle story.
Andrew Vontz 43:51
Right. So Ben, is there something about Blake that makes people want to jump on his neck and strangle him? Or have you had an experience like this?
Ben 43:59
No, I get I get why the guy did that to Blake. I mean, Blake is very handsome. He's very, like, he's got a lot of charisma. He's always like, perfectly kind of dressed and outfitted and has all the cool gear. Like, I'm sure a lot of people look at him and think, you know, fuck this guy. Right. And I get that. It's not that common that that happens in my mind. I think I go so far the other way where the demeanor The first thing I typically do is I tell people, I don't compete, right. I'm a hobbyist I don't compete and then they go, Okay, well, that takes it a rung down, right? Second thing is I don't usually stand up certainly, like if I go to a new gym or something, I'm probably going to sit on my butt and pull guard and whatever. Right. So let's take the like, hardcore wrestling off the table, you know, and I think it's like a few just subtle, subtle body differences and a few decisions of just sort of what you say and how you sort of bring yourself down and let them know that like I find that I don't get into many situations at these gyms because the people aren't viewing me as a threat, right? Where's people come in and they start, we've got, you know, competition patches on and, you know, they start looking at and I'm not this is in no way of how I think Blake reflects himself to be clear, but you know, I think there are those guys and they have that look and they look intense, they're not smiling and you're like, oh shit, like, I'm, I'm in for like, the war with that guy, like, I'm gonna, you know, avoid that guy or, you know, whatever. So I really kind of go out of my way, probably too much. So and there's actually a lot of guys that I've, I've gotten to know more over the years. And they're like, oh, like, I like tapped you the first time we rolled. And now you like beat me all the time. And it's because like, I go so slow at the beginning with people because I want to just make sure we're not getting into that situation, you know. And then as we get to know each other, I feel like we can pick up the pace, you know, over time.
Andrew Vontz 45:48
So I have a slightly different question for both of you. And again, you both have been doing jujitsu for a long time. Blake, you've been doing it for what, nine years now? 10 years? 10 years? Yeah. And then how long have you been doing it? 1717 years. And from what I've observed, a big part of jujitsu is your capacity to learn and to think systematically and to have a principle based orientation. So you can develop a system and then adapt it based on you know, who you're rolling with? Or things that you learn? How do you guys approach learning at this point? And how has your practice of jujitsu informed methods of learning? And then the corollary to that is, how does it inform your learning or skill acquisition and other domains of life?
Blake 46:44
One, like, I think that that that is a very generous view of jujitsu, I think there are guys that get to black belt, doing one thing really, really well, or one or two things really, really well. And they've become so comfortable in doing that thing, those things, that part of the game, that they they almost think that they don't have to put together the rest of it, I would say, good black belts, people who, even you people who become really good at the sport, do it, you know, come come from a systematic approach. But just like transparency, like, I think there's an idea of jujitsu that like, Oh, we're all these, you know, like, human chess wizards. And some of us aren't. And some of us are really good at jujitsu and just aren't that way. As far as like a systems approach, like, that's actually you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a independent contractor, freelance creative director and copywriter, and like, what I bring to the table often is not my necessarily my ability, as a writer, but my approach to like having a systems based approach to what I do. And that's very much like grounded in the way I think about jujitsu, right, like having when I when I when I come to an opponent, and I feel the way they they grab my ghee, or when I see how they respond to a grip that I make, or how they respond to anything that I do. And then I can kind of put together the chain of potential moves or ways that the the match can go. That is like, that isn't an approach that I am able to then take to like meeting a new client and asking them questions about their business, so that we can get over maybe are getting to know you phase very rapidly. And I can learn their industry and their business like very quickly, to the point where I can feel confident writing or telling them what they should do in it. So yeah, I see it in my life, in my career, like frequently like that, then how about
Ben 48:41
you? To be honest, this is the thing that I struggle with the most? Well, I'll take a step back, I'd say there's varying levels of how good you are at jujitsu and what a black belt means, for example, and in fact, a lot of the best people in jujitsu are held back by their instructors to win tournaments. So you'll find like a really high level competition purple belt is going to be you know, 99% of hobbyist black belts, right? Because it's just, they're competing, they're they're training, they're fighting all the time, they're in their prime, whatever the reason is, right? You can get a black belt in jujitsu like me by kind of hanging around long enough and being you know, good enough, but not great enough, if that makes sense. Like you will eventually get promoted just by sticking with it, right? And that's basically how I became a black belt. It wasn't you know, winning tournaments, again, wasn't even competing. But you know, I stayed on the mat long enough, got decent enough, where wasn't an embarrassment for the teacher to give me my black belt. I really struggle with sort of the systematic approach and I think that I have more of like an artsy sort of whimsical mind if you will, like creative, lots of ideas, add type type thing going on in my head, and I've really struggled to hone in and just practice the same move over and over again, and I think that's why you see these guys Like Mike Mikey Musa meshi, who drill 10 hours a day they're myopically focused on getting better at this one thing. And I again, I think that's why a lot of like engineers and people who have that brain of connecting the dots and following a system, following instructions, continuing with the plan become really good at jujitsu and that's that's not me, frankly. So I'm addicted to the feeling when I leave the mat, I would say it's almost like my positive drug acts. I've never really gotten good enough at the the drilling and the repetition and sort of the stuff that you're talking about as I wish I would. Yeah, I
Blake 50:40
would. I would also describe Ben is like a fun role. So like, Ben will kick my ass last time we rolled. I think he traveled me twice and around. And he just started at kaios. Which is, by the way, like an elite school. total badass is there. And, and Ben by Lee feeling great. Like I have a great time rolling with Ben because the way he rolls and the way he approaches jujitsu is, I would say whimsical and fun. And like that is one of my goals, right? My goal isn't to beat people. My goal is when I leave for jujitsu people to be like, I want to roleplay again, because that was fun. Because like, yeah, like, you know, even even as a competitor, you know, 99% of the time I do jujitsu isn't in the competition format, you know. So my teammates are the ones who make veteran, I'm the one who make them better. And so that's, I think that's a great goal to have. And again, like, Andy, like, you passed me that video the other day, that guy walking out of the sauna. And I think that's like one of the most, that's actually been one of the most impactful things. That message if that guy had is that what you're selling more than anything, is the way you make people feel. And I think about that a lot in jujitsu, because, you know, people aren't going to remember the fact that people people are going to remember the fact that like, I made them smile, way more than they're going to remember the fact that I made them tap. Anybody can make you tap, you know, it's not anybody but you know, it's a it's an attitude in the environment. I
Ben 52:02
think that's a great a great way to look at it, too. People want to roll with me, are people excited to roll with me and see me when I come in are like you the guy who everybody's walking and pretending not to see looking away from?
Andrew Vontz 52:15
Right. And so Ben, as you think about shifting away from your jujitsu, practicing going back to guardian, when you think about where you wanted to take Guardian over time, what is that vision? And if you had the opportunity to accelerate what you're doing right now, and I don't know, what inputs you would need to do that. I don't know if that's human capital, if it's if it's money, but if you had like, 100x, of what you needed right now, what is your maximum vision of what this would become?
Ben 52:49
Man? Glad you asked this question. Now, because of the way that we're doing the model, we can scale, you know, to an unlimited amount, right? There are 1000s of amazing instructors out there. And because of the growth of jujitsu martial arts in general, the UFC, but specifically jujitsu, there are so many great people who have come up over the last 10 years and now want to open their schools or already have, and I would say that the vast majority of them really share that same ethos, which is like, hey, I want to I want to help more kids, right? I want to get more people, kids and adults, frankly, but you know, I want to get people into jujitsu. So it's not hard to identify them. And we actually have a waitlist right now of schools who have contacted us people who have contacted us and want to start these in our local local area, we kind of have everything on pause right now, as far as expansion, because we have to obviously, be really careful, make sure the model is working, make sure that we're kind of working out all the kinks. And then we can slowly start to, you know, add folks in there. I think the real, the biggest opportunity is what I see with what we're doing in Peru, these third world areas, right third world countries, but specifically, you know, Fourth World areas within the third world country where the doctors can go so incredibly far. And, you know, we're essentially supporting that program 100% In Peru, right. And that means that there's kids, about half the kids that come to the gym, don't have running water at home, they don't have sandals, they certainly don't have GIS and rashguards. And so we're able to take a very small amount of money compared to where we're what we're able to do in somewhere like the Bay Area, and we're able to, you know, fully activate that school, and then it's just a matter of money for larger spaces, more uniforms, you know, more amenities competition. If we want to sponsor kids in the competition, there's so many things that we can do from there, but there's basically what we're doing in Peru times 500 locations around the world is how I would envision it if I had an unlimited amount of money right and of course, continuing to do things in the States. But I say that only internationally because that's where like they don't really have the local ability to fundraise on their own. So that's where the money really comes in handy where in the US it's more of a logistical problem. It's part money, but it's also just, you know, logistics there. It's like, if we have the money, it's that's all they need.
Andrew Vontz 55:10
Yeah, Ben, part of what's really jumped out at me and this conversation today. And it has been a common denominator that I've noticed over, you know, having done this podcast for four years now, I've done about 70 episodes, and I've spent most of my career for the past 25 years, telling the stories or helping to tell the stories of the world's top performers, brands, businesses, is that for you, and for Blake, it sounds like jujitsu has been this catalyst for you. It's connected you to a community, it's been a vector for personal growth and development. It's been something that you guys didn't say this explicitly. But I have to imagine that it's given you confidence and other domains of your life, when you're off the mat and doing the rest of what you do. And then part of what you're doing with Guardian is you're providing this opportunity for other people to have that experience. And in addition to that, as you were kind of discussing hero worship that happens within jujitsu schools, have the owners or the black belts running the school often. And I think culturally, this is happening with jujitsu, right now is well, is there's a, you know, there's almost an archetype, I asked a question about it, but around like, Oh, it's this magical way of thinking, or there's this wizard light quality. And part of what really jumped out at me about what you both shared, is, it's really about becoming the maximum version of yourself, not copying what someone else is doing or worshipping them, even if that's the message that you're hearing in a school, or I think, particularly in the world of podcasting creators. Now, there's kind of this mono culture mono message about jujitsu. And I think today, you all talked about kind of a different side of it, which I was really refreshing to hear. And I really appreciate you sharing your experience.
Ben 57:11
Thank you. Yeah, I think your points, I think your points very, very valid there. By the way, like, if you take it to more like a business analogy, stock trading, you know, any of these things, it's anybody who's just sort of following the herd is typically not going to do great things. And, you know, I think that you see the story. And I think I know, you've seen the stories of a lot of these guys who have built these multibillion dollar companies, for example, and they all have the same story of that, like they pitched 50 venture capitalists and 49 of them rejected them. And everyone told them, their idea was dumb. And like, all of a sudden, it was 10 years later became this massive thing, because they saw something that nobody else saw. And yeah, I think that's like, really, in a lot of ways. The only way to do great things in life is like find something that that not everybody else believes in I think that's like the Peter Thiel question that you asked is like, what's one, you know, truth that you believe that like everybody else does it or something like that? And he uses that as his question to try to figure out like, if you're outside the box thinker, or you're just like another person, that's not worth him having a meeting with?
Andrew Vontz 58:14
Well, thanks for having this meeting today. It was great to have you here and better. People want to learn more about guardian, where should they go?
Ben 58:22
Our website is guardian gem.org. So you can go there you can see all of our different academies. Anybody who wants to support us can choose a specific academy that they want to donate and see their money go to. To make sure it's going to the right place on Instagram, with same thing at Guardian gym. To follow us along there. You can subscribe to our newsletter on our website to stay in touch, you know, six, seven times a year with just some stories and kind of what's going on. But yeah, you can Google Guardian Guardian jujitsu, you'll find this pretty quickly and and come check out what we're doing. We'd love to have you follow along.
Andrew Vontz 58:59
Awesome, Ben, thanks for being here. Blake. Thanks for joining me as always, and thank you for getting flying triangles multiple times. So you could share that story which I enjoy every time I hear it. Thanks, guys.
Ben 59:11
Thank you. Thanks, man expense