Drew Dillman & Dylan Johnson - Gravel Racing 90210 -- The Lifetime Grand Prix, BWR and Beyond

LISTEN NOW: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, Google Podcasts

Dylan Johnson and Drew Dillman join @vontz to talk about pro gravel racing 90210 and the fun they had battling for 17th place at the final race of the Lifetime Grand Prix series, Big Sugar down in Bentonville, Arkansas, home of Walmart and the global epicenter of competitive cycling.

LISTEN NOW: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, Google Podcasts

We get into the past, present and future of pro gravel, why community matters, especially if you’re going to travel somewhere to compete, and more. Dylan and Drew are ½ of the Bonk Bros podcast, superstar YouTubers and run Ignition Coaching together.

---

Choose the Hard Way is a podcast about how doing hard things is fun. Please help more people find this podcast. To do that, just hit subscribe and rate the show five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this episode with someone you care about.

Go to choosethehardway.com to sign up for the newsletter and if there’s someone you think would make a great guest, DM @hardwaypod.

Choose The Hard Way is a Big Truck Production. Anthony Palmer at Palm Tree Pod Co is the producer and editor and Emily Miles is head of digital and marketing. Jeffrey Nebolini is the world-renowned designer behind our brand identity and the Choose the Hard Way logo. The content for this show is created by @vontz.

In This Episode:

Dylan Johnson Instagram | YouTube

Drew Dillman Instagram | Website

Ignition Coaching Website

- - - - - - - - - - 

Andrew Vontz LinkedIn

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts

Sign up for the Hard Way Newsletter

Choose The Hard Way is a Palm Tree Pod Co. production 

• TRANSCRIPTION

  Andrew Vontz 0:00

  This is probably like the 20th podcasts you guys have done this week. I think

  Dylan Johnson 0:06

  I you know what, what sucks is that I while I was busy having the worst day of my life, they recorded bond pros without me this week. So

  Drew Dillman 0:17

  which was probably in my favor because then I could like defend myself without having to argue against steal and steal a whole podcast was me convincing everybody how I was faster than Dylan at the big sugar, but he wasn't there to to argue. So it's like,

  Dylan Johnson 0:33

  I haven't listened to the episode yet. Was anybody convinced that you're faster

  Drew Dillman 0:37

  than everybody? Everybody was convinced. Okay.

  Andrew Vontz 0:42

  What were your what were your placings? Ultimately, what were you telling them? What were you drew?

  Dylan Johnson 0:47

  I got 18.

  Drew Dillman 0:48

  I was 24th 24th. And

  Andrew Vontz 0:51

  Drew how far into the race were you when you racked?

  Drew Dillman 0:54

  Drop my chain eight miles and chased back in and was in the group for all of like, a half a mile and then I crashed. But within half a mile I did pass Dylan So says a lot.

  Andrew Vontz 1:08

  Yeah, I saw them in the video. And I know I messaged both of you guys separately. But after my experience of BW or Kansas, and then watching a lot of point of view footage from big sugar, I've come to this conclusion that in gravel races that have frequent turns, it's actually not possible to control your bike. And all you're doing is drifting if you're moving at a high enough rate of speed. Yeah. And that. I mean, I know you guys have talked, maybe that talked a lot about tires. But I mean, do you do you feel like side knobs even do anything?

  Dylan Johnson 1:43

  Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know. Far less time thinking about knobs of tires. And then I do the casing of the tire, which is, for the most part, what determines the rolling resistance and the puncture resistance, although I think the knobs can help with the puncture resistance, too. But I mean, you make a great point when the gravel is that chunky and loose, it almost seems like the knobs are irrelevant.

  Andrew Vontz 2:11

  Yeah, I mean, I hadn't experienced and the group that I was in for most of most of the last four hours of the, of the DWR, Kansas and I did I did the the wafer or thin meant version of the event. But yeah, like we had some people in my group that went into a downhill turn too hot. And it was just like one of those marbles over hard pack situations. And it was like the scene and return the Jedi, where the storm troopers are on those like Airspeeder things in the forest on Endor. And just like start flying into trees. Yeah. So people just started flying off the road into ditches. And you know, it just seems like an inevitability once you pass a certain speed limit and lean angle on your bicycle when you're riding on marbles. Yeah,

  Dizzle 3:03

  Drew learned all about that didn't need

  Drew Dillman 3:06

  it. The side knobs felt pretty irrelevant as as I was coming to a drifting stop on the side of the road on the ground. Yeah. I think the most frustrating thing about the crash was that like it, I would have popped right back up and would have had to chase again. But like I would have been able to catch right back up. Had I noticed that there were just rocks jammed in my shifter I'm like, because my back wheel wouldn't spin. And I'm like, What is wrong with my bike and nothing looked wrong with it. And it was literally just rocks were jammed into my shifter and so my brake lever was being closed. So like, my brakes were being activated. And all it was was because rocks. I was like, literally, it took me two seconds to flick out the rocks. I was like, Man, if I hadn't noticed that, two or three minutes sooner, like would have been would have been game on. But

  Andrew Vontz 3:58

  yeah, I mean, Drew, I know that you're a weekly church attendee and it seems to me that something like that maybe later in life, if you go down the path of preaching that could become a parable that you could share with people

  Drew Dillman 4:08

  the parable of the rocks. Yeah, yeah. The Parable of

  Andrew Vontz 4:11

  the rocks. Right. You know, sometimes your your wheel won't turn and you don't know why and, and you look for everything, but actually, it's just it's just a couple of rocks stuck in your shifter. Yeah, that isn't

  Drew Dillman 4:22

  good. That's pretty good.

  Unknown Speaker 4:24

  Yeah, metaphor for life.

  Andrew Vontz 4:26

  Yeah, so I mean, it sounds like the headline here is Dylan you've had the worst week of your life. So what happened?

  Dizzle 4:34

  Okay, so the actually the morning of big sugar. I had a sore throat.

  Drew Dillman 4:41

  He was making excuses before they even started

  Andrew Vontz 4:45

  to put it on social media. I mean, I know.

  Dizzle 4:47

  It wasn't it wasn't a bad sore throat. I could just and I, I wasn't about to not do the race. I did the race and to be honest, after the race, I did have a sore throat like the the race clear? Did I at least at the time, I was like, I guess the race cleared it up. Freedom.

  Drew Dillman 5:07

  I could tell you were worried about it that morning. And I was like, I'm not gonna say anything. I was like, I wasn't because I can already tell you were burned on it. And I was like, I'm not gonna say anything, because I don't want it to like, get in your head or anything. So I just didn't say anything. I just dropped it.

  Dizzle 5:23

  Yeah, but that so then that night, I woke up with a terrible sore throat got terrible sleep. My whoop score was 1%. I don't know how often you've seen a 1% Whoop, score, but is

  Drew Dillman 5:36

  that because of the sore throat or because of the rain?

  Dizzle 5:39

  Priming, probably a lot of things. So, yeah, and then we drove home and the sore throat just got worse and worse. And it came with a fever and a headache. And it got so bad that on Tuesday, I or Monday, was it Monday? I can't the I've been to the ER three times this week. I can't remember the first time. So I went to the ER they tested me for COVID Flu strep was none of those. The doctor was like, Oh, well, you know, it's probably the common cold or whatever. So I don't go to the doctor for the common cold like, but regardless, I went back home got way worse. Wednesday, I went to the ER in the morning again and I was like This pain is unbearable. I have to do something. They gave me some painkillers. Again, none of the none of the tests they did came came back positive. So they gave me some painkillers. I took the painkillers and the pain was getting worse throughout the day. And by wet Wednesday afternoon. I mean, I can't remember a time in my life where I've been in worse pain. i i I can't remember. I'm sure this happened when I was a small child like I skinned my knee and I was crying because I skinned my knee when I was four years old, probably but I can't remember a time in my life where I was crying because of physical pain ever. And I was in tears. It hurts so bad. I couldn't eat anything. I didn't eat anything for 24 hours. Because my throat hurts so bad is painful to drink water is painful to swallow. I had to just spit my saliva out instead of swallowing it. And I went to the I just went to a different er like the ER and where I live in Brevard is not it's not that great, apparently. So I went to the next er, which is Hendersonville, which was a lot better. The doctor there was a lot more competent. I got a CAT scan of my throat, and they found that there was an abscess back there. Whoa. And the abscess was full of pus. And the doctor had to stick a needle down my throat and drain the abscess with the needle, which was pretty instant relief when he did that, like I could. He put numbing cream in there. But I could feel that my throat was more opened up after he did that. And obviously, I was on a bunch of painkillers, so and now I'm on anti. Now I'm on antibiotics. So I feel a lot better. I can still feel my throat. And it doesn't feel great. But I feel way better than I did on Wednesday.

  Drew Dillman 8:39

  We had the we had the luxury of getting a picture of the pus in a vial. Yeah, that day.

  Dizzle 8:46

  I did just post the picture on Instagram. So now everybody has that luxury.

  Drew Dillman 8:51

  We had the early subscription, nice.

  Andrew Vontz 8:54

  What do you believe to be the cause of the abscess? Did you get a fruity pebbles stuck back there? Like carb loading the day before? Like what went down?

  Dizzle 9:02

  Yeah, I don't know. I asked the doctor what causes abscesses in people's throats? And his answer was, you know, why do I have a mole on my arm? Yeah.

  Andrew Vontz 9:14

  That's a good answer.

  Dizzle 9:16

  Wow. Yeah, I don't know. I really don't know. But it's pretty i It seems like it's fairly rare. A rare occurrence. So hopefully it doesn't happen again.

  Andrew Vontz 9:28

  Yeah, I would hope so as well. So I have to ask you, I mean, you guys talked a little bit about the morning of the race still and you woke up? You had the sore throat you weren't feeling 100% clearly like this is a very important race. I mean, I know you both you guys have large social media followings. You're putting out content. Drew you're you're trying to get one of those now 30 slots in the lifetime Grand Prix next year, which I want to talk about this reduction in slots, which is interesting. But Given that what kind of so much on the line when you wake up on race day and you're not feeling 100% How do you mentally manage that?

  Dizzle 10:08

  Yeah, I other than my throat, which I will say that the on race morning, it didn't feel that bad on race morning. It just felt like maybe I was starting to get sick. Which is obviously not ideal, but I will say that my legs felt great. And the rest of my body felt great. And I was mentally prepared to race. So I wasn't really in a bad headspace. I don't think and I think I've, you know, as I've, as I've raced more and more throughout my career, I've kind of been good at dealing with setbacks in races, like a flat tire, cramping, or bonking or whatever I don't you know, I don't get super worked up about that. I can't remember a time in my life where I've raced while I was sick, to be honest with you, but I just kind of tried to think of it as another, you know, getting a flat tire out there, which a lot of people were going to have to deal with big sugars a flat tire heavy course. So,

  Drew Dillman 11:11

  you know, wasn't wasn't Logan Owens sick and he didn't race and because he didn't race the final event. He wasn't even in the final standings. So like, if you want to be in the final standings for the lifetime Grand Prix, you have to start the last race. Like no matter how I think Payson was sick last year, and he started like, it's a bummer. But that's kind of

  Dizzle 11:34

  a mandatory race for the lifetime Grand Prix.

  Andrew Vontz 11:37

  Yeah, have to get that parade and for the for the Waltons and the people of Bentonville,

  Drew Dillman 11:42

  you have to start but you don't have to do you have to finish if you if you DNF

  Dizzle 11:48

  like for example, Matt beers didn't finish crash. I don't know if he broke his collarbone or dislocated a shoulder or something like that. And he was still, he got zero points for the race. But he still was in the standings. Got it.

  Andrew Vontz 12:06

  In with big sugar having consumed at this point, I think most of the content that's been created about the event. So yeah, it's the final race in the lifetime Grand Prix series for people who have already in what you can drop two races this year, or how many was it?

  Speaker 3 12:22

  Yeah, there's seven races total. And you get to drop races. So yeah,

  Andrew Vontz 12:27

  so for the lifetime athletes, it's a chance to move up in the overall rankings. If it's one of the races, you're not going to drop. And of course, there's a lot on the line in terms of getting into the series next year probably helps with sponsors, I would imagine if you get a great placing at this event, from what I gathered, this, this seems like a very dangerous event. And I didn't really get that vibe last year. But I don't know if that's just because there's much more content being made this year. And it just seemed like much more ferocious level of competition and battle for positioning in the pack from what I observed. But again, there just wasn't that much content put out about the race last year. But what was your experience of it?

  Speaker 3 13:11

  Well, what I'll say is that if you are just riding the big sugar gravel by yourself on a pre ride or just an endurance ride by yourself out there for some reason, it's not that dangerous. It's really you know, it's fine. It's when you it's when you put 50 really fast, really aggressive racers, all in a pack together, bunched in close proximity that it gets starts getting dangerous because the gravel roads are pretty narrow. And there's a lot of dust being kicked up and you're trying to follow wheels, so you can't see what you're hitting. And it's very loose, and it's very chunky, and flat tires were happening right and left crashes were happening right and left. I think it's the combination of of being on these particular gravel roads. And racing at the elite level. I think it from footage that I've seen from even some of the age group pack riders, it you know, the speeds aren't as high in the following distances. It is close and it's probably safer. But I don't know when I was when I was descending out there it was, it was quite scary. Probably probably the scariest gravel race I've done.

  Andrew Vontz 14:27

  In Drew, you're coming from, you know, the world of criterium racing where people routinely put other people in under the curve where they could have actual life threatening injuries. How did it feel for you to be in the mix at this race compared to some of the things you've done in the world of criterium racing, which, you know, on its face is just an incredibly dangerous discipline?

  Drew Dillman 14:49

  Yeah, well, relative to that, considering that my the last I did I broke my wrist in doesn't doesn't compare. Current racing is way worse. Like, in gravel racing people freak out. If you touch them through one turn, and quit racing people are touching you through every turn. And it's just and the speeds are higher. Feel like the consequences are higher. Like when you crash like you what you said because the speeds are higher. It's all paved, but and to be quite frank on my YouTube video, my my, my strategy was clickbait so like I put on there too sketchy. That was mainly to get people to watch it I and like Dylan influenced me if you read it, like if you read Dylan's race report, I think it was on Strava or something. He said that he It felt pretty dangerous. But I wasn't in that league group, I was pretty much like, I got to see the road. Like for 90 miles, I got to see the road. You know what I mean? And so I felt like I had a pretty good control on like, you know, I could I could totally see where if you're in the group, and you're a little bit more blind on some of those decisions, it would make it way more scary. But I had the luxury of like, on most of the dissents I could, I was by myself so I could see everything.

  Speaker 3 16:11

  So So Drew, this is a point that I wanted to bring up on blank rows, but I obviously didn't make it on this week. I now I'm actually very impressed with how the challenge extra protection tires did seems like every rider that ran those challenge tires, and I can think of three of them you being one did not flat. So it's a testament to those tires might actually

  Drew Dillman 16:36

  I'm going to clip this and this is going to be the highlight right here.

  Speaker 3 16:42

  So it seems like those new XP, the old the the challenge tires that don't have the extra protection, for sure flat really easily. And I don't think you would have made it through the I don't even know if you would have been able to finish on those tires, to be honest, so fragile. But it seems like these new XP tires, at least a big sugar they pulled through with the not flattening and you know, being out there challenge tires, they're probably pretty quick, too. I will say that you you crashing out of the front group at mile 10 And then having to solo for 90 miles, probably increased your odds of not flatting. Like had you stayed with the front group, there's a there's a much higher chance that you would have had a flat out there.

  Drew Dillman 17:29

  Yeah, I agree.

  Andrew Vontz 17:31

  And for people listening who have not, you know, been at the sharp end of an elite gravel race, Dylan is that just because you have such tight proximity to the people around you and you can't see what you're writing into?

  Speaker 3 17:43

  Exactly. You're trying to follow wheels. And it was also very dusty, which means you couldn't really see. All you could see in front of you during a lot of sections was just the riders but in front of you. You couldn't even see the ground. It was so dusty. And there's potholes out there. There's sharp rocks. I mean, you're just hitting stuff absolutely blindly. And that's where most of the flat tires come from.

  Andrew Vontz 18:11

  Yeah. And there was a helicopter out there this year filming the entire race. I think what did it I don't know if you've been in a race before where there's been a helicopter thing. I think there is a Leadville as well.

  Speaker 3 18:23

  Yeah, Leadville, there was a helicopter. I think at Laredo, when I did Laredo, there was a helicopter. But yeah, it was it was it seemed like it was more noticeable during this race, because I felt like I heard the helicopter the whole time. It was like, yeah, the helicopters right there. Whereas at Leadville, the helicopter must have been high enough up in the air that I didn't even really notice it

  Andrew Vontz 18:49

  to be getting any downdraft from the helicopter at all. Did it influence the race in any way?

  Speaker 3 18:54

  You know, it's, I don't know, it's hard to say there is a pretty significant amount of tree cover for a lot of the course, which is probably why the helicopter had to be lower. And there was already so much chaos going on on the ground that it was kind of hard to say whether there was any influence from the helicopter.

  Andrew Vontz 19:14

  Yeah. And I know you guys are both raised in the Midwest quite a bit. I grew up in Kansas City, Missouri. So I've spent a lot of time being out in the wind, I have to say drew the wind that we had it BW or Kansas was was more than I think I've experienced previously in the Midwest. And you know, during the times I've done the unbound 100 I don't feel like the wind. Was that strong. did. Did that jump out at you? Or were you just like, Yeah, whatever.

  Drew Dillman 19:46

  Yeah, I think I was more in the line of yeah, whatever. Yeah, I think in a race like that. And because I was in the lead group, there's like, you're thinking the whole race. Like I'm always constantly thinking about what Do Who do I follow? Where do I? Where do I need to be in the group? Am I eating enough? Like your brain is constantly going? And so when I think of the race, I don't eat I barely. I remember the wind on the really bad on that last whatever that whoever Yeah, the levy because it was like you were going straight into it and I was chasing people down so like, at that point I was so low and was like, oh yeah, this sucks.

  Andrew Vontz 20:27

  It also was a time of year when all the crops had been harvested there. I mean, just going out and riding around and Lawrence the day or two before the race, there was maybe one or two fields that still had crops. I mean, it's noticeably different when you have I don't know what the crop was. It wasn't corn, but it was something that was tall, and then you get past that. And it's just, you know, you're like almost getting blown off your bike. And there were so many directional changes. In that race, you were always getting hit, you know from some angle. And for me not having raced in when that strong in quite a long time. The thing that I knew what happened, but I found to be most surprising was when we turn the corner and would get the tailwind because the first few people can just take off and then you've like, there's no relief. You then have to ride even harder in the tailwind to stay with the group. Which is super fun.

  Drew Dillman 21:23

  Yeah. Did you have to do you have to like climb through that stop to train?

  Andrew Vontz 21:30

  Did I have to wait?

  Drew Dillman 21:30

  There was a stop to train? Oh, no, no.

  Andrew Vontz 21:33

  Yeah, the train was not on the tracks when I got there. The group that was right in front of me had to go through it though. Yeah, I think

  Drew Dillman 21:42

  that was did you Yeah, I rolled up to it was like, I immediately turned my GoPro on because I was like, Oh, this is the footage. Luckily, there were some people there from the amateur group or from the shorter races, that, like I was able to just jump right off and hand them my bike and leaped over. And then at that point, row Birge. And Finn Gullickson had just been like sitting on my wheel for like five miles. And I was like, are these guys going to sprint me at the end? Because this is ridiculous. And so then as soon as I got through the train tracks, I just attacked. Attack. But I was like, I'm not waiting for these guys. Like, right at that point. I was in chase mode. It was like I need to catch people. Because I still help pretty good. But

  Unknown Speaker 22:28

  how close is this to the finish?

  Drew Dillman 22:30

  Oh, like, a couple miles, it was probably two miles before you turn on the last levee. And then you're on the levee for like five miles and then you hit that last 10 miles of single track. But once you get into the single track, it's like, that's like pretty much the finishing straights. 10 miles of singletrack. But you're so close to the finish that like it feels like once you enter the single track. That's like kind of the finish. Gotcha.

  Andrew Vontz 22:55

  Yeah, the single track. I mean, it had a speed limit. And then other there were those multiple sections have extremely deep sand. But other than that, I felt like once you were in there, you're gonna go the speed limit and you were looking at there wasn't like a big chance to move up. So for both you guys, when you look back at kind of the trajectory of this entire season of Drew, if you set aside the broken wrist and Dylan maybe having this abscess, which sounds sounds horrific, what was your worst day on the bike at a race this year? And what happened?

  Drew Dillman 23:31

  And I can't I can't say the day I broke my wrist.

  Andrew Vontz 23:35

  No, we have to take that verb. taking that off the table. That's a bad day. But

  Drew Dillman 23:39

  I only did it seriously. I only raced like, I think only raced like less than 15 times if you add them all up because of the broken wrist. I don't know Dylan, you go first.

  Speaker 3 23:52

  You know, I didn't really have I can't really think of a bad day on the bike this year. My worst Grand Prix result was sea otter. But it wasn't, it wasn't really a bad day. I made a really bad tactical error at the beginning, going. People, people who probably watch some sort of footage from the race, if footage from the race exists, probably think I just tried to attack off the front and the first mile which wasn't the case, I just thought everybody was gonna go as hard as they could into the single track. Like they did the year previously. But I was wrong about that. And then right before we hit the single track because I had been off the front for 45 seconds. So about 40 guys passed me and I was in pretty bad position. I think I ended up finishing 30th in that race, which, again was my worst Grand Prix results of the year. I wouldn't even call that a bad day on the bike. I've had much, much worse days on the bike. So it's all in all it's been it's been a good year. I can't think of a terrible day on the bike this year.

  Drew Dillman 25:00

  Yeah, I can't think of a bad day. They're like the worst that I can think of is BW or Utah because it was at a little bit of elevation. And it was my first race back from the broken wrists. So I was still like, still building fitness. But that's not like a mental that was just fitness. You know what I mean? Like, I've felt like, I've made a lot of tactical errors like Dylan was saying, Were like, it'd be WR California, I think I had good legs. But I made such a bad decision at the beginning of the race that it affected the rest of the race. And I feel like I've done that a lot like early in these races. I'm, I'm very, not very confident in my long endurance fitness. So like, at DWR, California at gravel nets. And a big sugar, big sugar was because of a crash. But at those two races, that gravel nets and BW are California, I made like early decisions to not burn too many matches. And then the rest of the race, I'm like, not with the leaders. And that's like a lack of confidence in my own abilities. And I need to like, so at Big sugar. I was like, You know what I'm racing at the front, I'm not leaving this front group. I don't care how hard we go. I'm burning the matches to stay in that lead group. But then I crashed. So yeah, and I felt like DWR Cal Kansas was like a real kind of like, eye opener for myself, just because it was like, it was very reassuring to know, I can race at the front the whole time, and not blow up. And I'm just like, super, I know that at the end of the race is when like, you could lose a lot of positions. And having that knowledge, I'm like, I don't want to end up so deep in the tank that like 10 Guys past me in the last 10 miles. But that hasn't happened yet. So I feel like I just need to be a little bit more. I just need to trust my fitness a little bit more than what I do. But

  Andrew Vontz 27:02

  you gotta trust, you've got to trust the forest. I wanted to go back to the train thing for a moment. And for anyone who's listening who's hasn't seen Drew's video yet or isn't aware of what happened at BWI, or Kansas, it's one of the major gravel races on the calendar. In Yeah. And like the last 1520 miles of the race. Riders encountered a a very active freight train line, I believe it's a Union Pacific line. And there was a stopped freight train freight trains can be up to a mile long if you're not, not from an area with trains and don't know how this works. Once a freight train starts to go by, you might be waiting there for five or six minutes. If it's a mile long train, depending on how fast it's traveling. This train, for some reason, was stopped on the tracks at the crossing when the pro field rolled up. And they made the decision to cross through the train because I think there were already people on the other side. Right. They

  Drew Dillman 27:56

  were people crossing it when I got there. So and there was a race promoter right there. And I was like, Is this the right way? And he's like, Yeah, we're trying to get it moved. And I was like, All right.

  Andrew Vontz 28:09

  Yeah, but yeah, again, if you're listening, you should never do this. This is an incredibly dangerous thing to do. You can you can actually, you can die for free train that felt

  Drew Dillman 28:20

  very dangerous as we were doing it. Right. And

  Andrew Vontz 28:23

  Drew you were running road shoes and pedals. Correct.

  Drew Dillman 28:26

  Now I switched to mountain mode, pedals. All that all the woods sections in the middle. Okay.

  Andrew Vontz 28:31

  Yeah, I was really curious when I watched your video, because I knew a lot of at least in the way for most people are running road shoes and pedals, which I just never do any more, given some of the experiences I've had with changes in weather events. And but yeah, nonetheless, whatever shoes you might be wearing, crossing an active freight train line while a train has stopped is a bad idea. And if you're not going to have a good day,

  Drew Dillman 28:58

  this is the answer covering his bases, so we don't get sued. It sounds like no, not maybe I should just disclaimer in my YouTube video now.

  Andrew Vontz 29:10

  You know, I've actually been thinking about this a lot. I wanted to talk a little bit about the design of the lifetime Grand Prix series. And I've been talking to some people from that team. I actually want to get some people from lifetime on the podcast because I find should

  Drew Dillman 29:24

  have got them on today so that we could convince them to get me in.

  Andrew Vontz 29:28

  Well, maybe you too can come

  Drew Dillman 29:31

  in the main guy at 20 at the rave. But he he said he wasn't the guy that selected and I was like, you don't want to give this $20 Bill too so I can get in.

  Andrew Vontz 29:42

  That's what he tells everybody drew you have to you know, you have to know the magic.

  Unknown Speaker 29:46

  More than $20 to

  Andrew Vontz 29:49

  Yeah, but I I want to come back to that in a minute. But I'm curious. I mean, Drew I know you're relatively new to gravel, Dylan. You know you're like You're You're the godfather of gravel at this point. But you know, just as an amateur participant, I've been going to gravel events now for, I think, yeah, more than a decade probably. And as participation has increased, and also the level of competition has become noticeably stiffer, even in my field at a relatively low level as like, this has gotten a lot more scattered a lot more serious than it was a decade ago, for sure. And that's cool. I think that's part of what makes it really fun is getting to experience the race dynamics that you're reading about, or seeing professional riders doing. When you're an amateur, I think that's, that's a super fun thing to do. And for people who are listening, if you just ride recreationally, I recommend trying a race because number one, it's super fun. Number two, you're going to learn something about yourself. Number three, I think the process of training for and competing and are bent, really can unlocked just things about yourself that you might not know. And it's a very satisfying process. Because unlike almost everything else in life, if you fall into a solid endurance training program, you're going to actually get better. And he can say that about very few things in life. But something that I've noticed is, man, we're paying a lot of money at this point to do these events. And I don't know, I'm assuming entries are comp for you guys in most of these bigger events. But as an amateur, you're paying a couple 100 bucks to go do an event. You're traveling, you know, you're taking time away from your family and your job. And then you show up. And it's kind of genius, because yes, the promoters are doing a lot in terms of, you know, doing some kind of a minimal level of safety, I would say, but you're out there on a course where cars are driving around, they're coming in and out of groups of riders, you're running into trains. And it just seems to me that as the competition increases, and you're putting more people out on the road, it does feel like it's getting more and more dangerous. And I don't know what the experience has been like, for you guys. Because, you know, professional bike racing is an inherently incredibly dangerous pursuit. At the same time. I don't know like you come around a corner and you know, a Ram 1500 is driving right at you. That's, that's a different kind of risk, then I'm going to go into a corner too hot. So yeah, I'm just curious as the level of competition has increased, you're going faster when you have those kinds of variables out on the course. Does it feel like it's getting more dangerous to you all? Or is it just kind of the status quo that you've always experienced?

  Dizzle 32:45

  Yeah, I think that the heightened level of competition does bring more danger to it. I think drew Did you catch on video, that Jeep that was in the middle of the field at the beginning of the race we're talking about this is when the front group was probably steal the entire 70 Ryder pro field? Yeah, it was coming around the corner and there was a Jeep there. It was actually pretty miraculous that no one hit that jeep, in my opinion. Yeah, I don't know if we're coming to the point where these roads need to be closed for these races instead of open. Because we're, you know, we're talking about roads that aren't there gravel roads. So by definition, there's not going to be a lot of traffic on them. But all you know, all it takes is one car, right? Takes one car to kill someone. It doesn't have to be a heavily trafficked road. And there are some cases like BW or California where you're actually you're actually racing on roads that have quite a bit of traffic. It's not one car. It's quite a few cars. So yeah, I mean, I think that this is a discussion that's kind of been lurking in the background of gravel as it's gotten more and more popular about whether or not closed roads need to be a thing. Better safety precautions need to be a thing. I think it's highly dependent on the race. There's some races that actually do a good job with it. And then there's some races where I get done with the race and I was think that is the sketchiest thing I've ever done. So

  Andrew Vontz 34:22

  yeah, yeah, I mean, I was at a race earlier in the year rescue T TSA and Vermont Great Race great promoters, and we had a writer get killed they I don't know the exact details but from what I gathered from the police report, I think the writer came off of a gravel section I think into a sweeping turn onto a paved road and crossed the centerline because you know, they probably went into the apex of the turn exited wide and they had a hat on, I believe with a ramp 1500 and dial, you know, which is is tragic. That's it's it's, it's awful, but when you're mixing people that want to get a great result in their amateur cycling event with traffic on an open road. I don't know, just having somebody standing there in an orange vest, who's not an actual law enforcement officer may not be sufficient to have a safe event. And there's personal responsibility involved. Of course, if people are crossing the center line, that's just not something you should do.

  Drew Dillman 35:24

  Yeah, I was gonna say that there's some things that are like within the promoters control, and a lot of things that aren't. And I think, you know, the things that are kind of out of their control, yeah, like controlling where the riders go, there's only so much they can do there. But there are a lot of things that I think are within the control of a promoter like Rerouting. If there's if like, for example, at the mid south, you go through downtown Stillwater to get to the finish line, and there's probably five stoplights that you have to hit. And the last time I did it, I wasn't able to do it this year. But when I did it in 2022, I was doing the double. So like, every second counted, and I ran a red light. And if I hadn't done that, I would have lost, I won my nine seconds. And So had I stopped at that red light, I would have lost the race. So like they need to consider that. And I think that you either need to have police people there to like, stop, stop the traffic so riders can go through, or they just need to reroute it so that that doesn't happen. And that's totally within the control of the promoter. And I think that that's, at least for that race, I think they're making a bad call with the way they're routing it. And that's, you know, that's something that could be changed and made safer on behalf of the promoter. But like random cars coming around turns and stuff like, yeah, that stuff is dangerous. But you know, I feel like the argument can be made like 10 years ago, this stuff was just as dangerous. There's just more people now. And it's more covered, like people with cameras on their bikes. So yeah, I don't know about all that stuff. But

  Dizzle 37:07

  yeah, I don't know if you've talked about the unbound mud situation on this podcast, from this year where the the mod was so horrendous. It's not necessarily a safety concern. But what it is a concern for, at least what a lot of people brought up is that, as you were saying, amateurs are spending a lot of money to come to the race, traveling really far taking time off of work taking time from their family. And then they come to unbound and they get 11 miles in and their bike explodes from catastrophic, thick Kansas mud. And they got 11 miles into a race that was supposed to be 200 miles for them. And we we talked about the unbound mud situation so much on bonk rose when it happened. But I think that the more and I was I was kind of I was kind of I could see both sides of the argument when it first happened. There were a lot of people making the argument, you know, well, this is this is gravel racing. You know, part of gravel racing is sometimes you have to deal with adverse conditions. But I think the more that I think about it, I'm on the side of they probably should have rerouted that. I mean, they were already thinking about rerouting it on the starting line, and they just ended up not. But

  Andrew Vontz 38:31

  yeah, I think it's I think it's a really interesting question. And the last time I did, unbound 100, and I got second that year for the second time.

  Drew Dillman 38:42

  Who did you? Did you lose to Stephen had?

  Andrew Vontz 38:46

  No, I wish it was a little bit earlier than the arrival of Stephen Hyde. But do we ran into we had like the same mud scenario. So this was I think maybe the first time that had happened was in 2015. And it was the exact same thing we got about, I don't know 1215 miles into the race, and we had one full hour of running in mud. There was ankle deep mud, it was the exact same thing bike packed up, you're like pushing a 40 pound bike for an hour. And you guys know how it is because you've done it. It's with the rolling terrain. At least the year that I did it, it was rollers for the entire hour that we were running. So you would keep thinking like man, when I get to the top of this hill, I'm finally going to be done pushing this effing bike that I've been pushing. And then you get to the top of the hill and then you just see a series of rollers and it the way I characterize it, I didn't episode about it with my buddy Blake who got I got second he got there. And it was like, like a battle scene and Game of Thrones because we were doing the 100 and it was before the 102 100 split. I don't know how they run it now but back then the one 100 Would started, I don't know, like 10 minutes after the full distance. So we basically were writing into the back of a field of like 1000 people and then having to work our way through it until the race splits. So we're like running with 1000 people in this mud. And if you guys don't experience this, but an interesting aspect of the amateur experience, particularly for sprint distance, gravel racers, such as myself, is there's this bizarre dynamic of everybody's trying to figure out who in this group is and my distance, who is in my age group, people doing this weird calculus of whether they're going to pull or not, or do any work based on who they think is actually in their field. And we had a really funny moment at BWI at Kansas, where I knew my buddy Spencer who I host the beyond the peloton, podcast with I knew that Spencer was up the road and was in whatever the lead group was also no Spencer's, a former professional, you know, domestic pro cyclist, and he's incredibly fast. And the guys in my group, I could hear him talking, I think, you know, I think there are only like two way for riders in here. And then then like, we have this split, and we have like a group of 15 people who are in the wafer, and are still like, well, you know, who's in what age group as like, hey, look, and they're like five people up the road, and they're at least five minutes in front of us. So we're Nobody here is gonna win the race, just so you know, unless somebody like starts working. But anyway, with the with the mud thing I just had Joe de Sena, the founder of the Spartan Race on the podcast, just dropped that this week, we had a conversation about this. And it's been a question I've explored a lot on this podcast, which is I think, with endurance sports, what amateurs are looking for, they do want to have that experience that growth experience of I'm doing something that's demonstrably difficult. I've worked a long time to go to something like unbound. And I think there is this question of, is it when you introduce these variables that are highly unexpected, such as the mud is that additive to the experience and actually pushing people into some new dimension of potential personal growth? Or is it just super annoying because you went to do a bike race, not put your bike around in the mud for an hour and a half, which is, if you haven't trained for it, like if you don't run? You're gonna have a bad day, right? Like most people training for a gravel race aren't training to push a 40 pound object for an hour?

  Dizzle 42:29

  Sure. I think that I think that what I don't necessarily mind having to run when you didn't train for running, I think what I'm what I'm, personally a little more peeved by with the mud is that gravel racing is already probably too much determined by people having mechanicals, it would kind of be nice if there were less mechanicals and gravel racing so that the winner of unbound wasn't determined by who didn't get a flat tire out there.

  Drew Dillman 43:03

  Think about this with running and running. There's no mechanical errors. I mean, what happens unless your shoes like totally blow out which that's the only variable in running are your shoes. If your shoes blow out your and even then you can keep running. But like,

  Dizzle 43:21

  Yeah, I mean, you could have you could have body problems

  Drew Dillman 43:24

  like, Yeah, but that's any sport. I'm saying. Like, think of all the variables in cycling, like, screwed up Ebola. And Ebola is so small, think of all the other little things on your bike that could go wrong.

  Dizzle 43:37

  Exactly. Well, so that's, that's the point I'm getting at. So gravel racing, arguably might be the discipline of cycling that is the most influenced by mechanicals. And maybe that'll change over the years as gravel equipment gets better. But I think when you introduce that mud section, you're only you're only increasing the chance that the race gets determined by mechanicals by an exponential amount.

  Drew Dillman 44:04

  I think the thing that that upset me the most is like what you were talking about Andrew was like the additive or subtract like that a lot of people, their experience ended at mile 11. And they didn't get to do the other 190 miles that they signed up for because their buying blew up. And it was like, that's, that's a bummer. People like traveled all the way out there, paid their money, train their tails off, and then some mud rips their trailer off and they don't even get to experience good or bad. The rest of the race like that's what frustrates me is like, so many people had to probably quit right there.

  Andrew Vontz 44:43

  Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. There is a bigger existential question that I'd love to hear from you guys about. And I think that there is this trend towards what I would call stunt courses where it's we're going to add in something that's extra horrible to our course. That's I don't know, it's an extra dimension of physical challenge for the writer or it's something that if you're not prepared for it, or don't manage it really carefully, you didn't bring a paint stick that day, or a small flathead screwdriver, which is my favorite. Although I've been told not to carry one because it might take longer something. But hey, you know what? That's no risk, no champagne, you gotta roll the dice in life. But what do you think about this trend towards because I see these stunt courses becoming more and more and more difficult. I just keep thinking, you know, we're getting really close to this just being marathon mountain bike racing, and just bring them bring your full suspension mountain bike.

  Dizzle 45:42

  Yeah, I mean, so I guess that's the other side of the coin. Right. That's kind of what I was saying. People, I think people that were pro midsection, which there are there were plenty of people that were pro midsection. And, and when, right after the race, I was a little bit mixed on it. You know, the argument is that, hey, this is this is what gravel racing is, you know, don't don't change, gravel racing, change your approach to gravel racing. Don't make gravel racing more like road racing. Like become a gravel racer, and bring your bring your paint stick and be ready for mud and be ready for terrible conditions. And I can see that argument. And, and to be honest, I you know, if for people that follow me and watch my YouTube channel, one of the things that I love about gravel racing, and marathon mountain bike racing the most is probably being more prepared with my equipment than my competitors. I love that I love when I have something on my bike. That gives me an edge over everybody else who I'm racing with. And so I don't think I had that this year. At Unbound, I thought, I think looking back on it. My bike setup was probably not appropriate for that mud. I think that if I could go back and do it again, I might have even just written my drop our hard tail with normal gravel tires, so that the mud clearance would have been, you know, so if the mud clearance on the bike was a lot better, perhaps I made I would have made that front group. And then it wouldn't have mattered that my bike was heavier or less aerodynamic, because I'm with the front group. So but yeah, I think that I think that those are all cool aspects of racing. And like I said, this is why I was kind of seeing both sides of it. At first.

  Drew Dillman 47:31

  I like I really liked the Belgian waffle ride races, at least the ones that I've done. Because I think they do a good job at this. They don't just take something stupid and add it to the course like a big mud section. They take the sections that are like fun or require some bike handling. And they throw those sections into the race like VW or Kansas, there was that pretty much a back country Woods section at mile 50. And it was like five or six miles long. And it was a little bumpy. But it required like you could immediately tell who were the roadies, and who were the off roadies, like the cyclocross mountain bike guys. And being one of the off roadies coming from a cycle craft most of the mostly a cyclocross background. I love those sections because like, that's the, that's the skill set that I have. So like I can put time into people there. And it creates a dynamic of like, skills that are required, like riding through mud is not a skill, like,

  Dizzle 48:34

  well, I will say I will say it could be a skill if it's typical cyclocross mud that for sure requires skill. Right, right. Or the mud unbound was just you know, I saw some people commenting on this when there was like a video of Keegan Swenson riding through the mud. And there were some comments saying, oh, man, he's just so skilled, or he's just so powerful. It was 100% due to the massive tire clearance that the stigmata has, and it had honestly nothing to do with skill or power, being able to ride through that mud, you could put out 1000 Watts through the whole mud section. But if you didn't have the tire clearance, then your bike was just going to snap in half and you weren't going anywhere.

  Andrew Vontz 49:18

  Yeah, it's it's clay, if you didn't grow up in the Midwest, with the mud that we're talking about is basically clay. It weighs a lot it packs up. It's very hard to get off your bike once it's on there. So just to go in a slightly different direction. This is a really tactical question. But again, I think there are a lot of people out there amateurs in particular you guys are you know, drew it sounds like you didn't raise a ton this year but you've traveled a lot to raise Dylan You're doing this constantly. Drew when you're in the lifetime series next year, you're gonna just be jet setting on the you know, you're gonna be on that private plane every weekend popping into these races. Oh, yeah, but all the Logistics and ops stuff that you have to manage to show up somewhere with functioning equipment that has all the special stuff to do the thing plus all of your nutrition, it's a lot to manage. And then you're in a new location, you're sleeping in a new space on a different bed with different pillows. And on race day, you also have to, to balance, hydration, caffeine, and the fact that you're not going to be able to stop for like five to eight hours, basically, if you want to be competitive in a race. So I think on that final point, how do you guys manage that balance of like caffeination hydration and the need to just like, you can't get off your bike? I don't know if you guys can pee.

  Drew Dillman 50:45

  Pee off the bike. Is that what you're asking? How do you feel?

  Andrew Vontz 50:48

  That's so do you guys. Are you? Are you appear off the bike during the race last

  Drew Dillman 50:52

  year at amateur roadmaps I had never really like I don't I just not raced that many long races. And I have to pee so bad. And I had never done it. I think I had tried to do it maybe had done it once. And it's hard to do. Yeah. And I'm sitting at the back the like, of course, the official car is right behind me. So I'm like, I don't know if it was because I didn't know how to or because I was just a nervous peer. And I knew they were watching me. But I sat back there for literally like 30 or 40 minutes of the amateur road race trying to pee. I had teammates coming back there. I watched Tanner Ward, another road racer, I think I watched him come back and pee twice in the time that I was trying to just pee once. And after that, and I never did. I just had to like suck it up and hold it and which probably affected the race, I don't know. And then after that, I was like, I gotta learn how to pay off the bike. So all winter, I'm gonna make a YouTube video about this of like, how to pay off the bike. It'll be it'll be it'll be PG. It won't be Yeah. It won't be in like the classified section or whatever. Yeah, well, then YouTube wouldn't even allow you to put it up there. Yeah, it won't be explicit. But I've thought about this a lot. And there's a, there's a series of steps that you can take to get better at paying off the bike. And yeah, at some point, you got to just do it. And to figure out like, you're gonna leave

  Dizzle 52:17

  us on a cliffhanger, but pretty much

  Andrew Vontz 52:19

  pretty well, I mean, also, impacts

  Drew Dillman 52:23

  I peed off the bike at BWI, Kansas, when Daxton came out of the middle wooded section about a minute ahead of everybody behind us instead of because the wind was so bad. We're like, we're not going to try to the two of us are not going to make it to the finish. So we were like, how about on the next downhill? We pee and then they catch us? And we were like, Yeah, that's That's smart. So we both peed and then they caught up to us. And that was our advantage.

  Andrew Vontz 52:49

  Yeah. Okay, so you have a strategy at this point. I mean, it also for me, it impacts clothing selection going into the race, because I find I'm not an on bike, Pierre, my current strategy is just I slightly under hydrate so that I can have the appropriate level of caffeine and then not need to go to the bathroom during the race, which I think is definitely has to be sub optimal from a performance perspective. Because if you're dehydrated at the outset, you're just not going to put out as many watts, I don't think. But I also thought about going into BW or Kansas. I felt that a skin suit or speed suit would have been the ideal thing to wear from an aero perspective. But I also thought, Man, if I ended up having to pee off the bike, or even get off the bike to pee. I just find it takes more time to do that versus bibs and a jersey.

  Drew Dillman 53:43

  Yeah, that's probably accurate. I've never, I've never registered or raced a long race. I always use race bibs and a jersey, you need

  Dizzle 53:53

  to get a skin suit that that is easy to pee with. Like for example,

  Drew Dillman 53:58

  summer summer, I think they're called summer suits, but it's basically it's basically bibs with a jersey attached to it so if Yeah, it feels like a bit yeah, there you go. So

  Dizzle 54:10

  my my rule 28 Road skin suit like like they call it the road suit is very easy to pee out of that

  Drew Dillman 54:17

  if a dealer just pieces Shami so like that's

  Dizzle 54:26

  off the bike for me is I have not mastered peeing while riding. You have to practice and fortunately, fortunately, I usually don't have to pee during a gravel race. If it's over 70 degrees. I will not have to pee one time during the whole race. The race can be 10 hours I won't have to pee. The only time I have to pee during a gravel race is if it's cold. So probably if it's under 70. I might have to pee if it's under 60 degrees. I'm definitely having to pee. And for example, at at least Leadville this year, it was quite cold. I think it was 40 degrees for most of the race, and then it was 50. And then maybe towards the end it hit 60. But we're talking about really cold temperatures. And I probably peed seven times. During Leadville. I didn't I didn't stop, and I didn't. I just peed my Shami seven times during Leadville. It smelled so bad after the race.

  Drew Dillman 55:23

  I can't believe you admit that. It's doing it. But are you actually saying that is like a whole nother,

  Dizzle 55:30

  if I honestly even if I even if I was capable of paying off the bike, and I had to stop pedaling and pee off the bike seven times during Leadville, I probably would have lost like, two or three minutes. And that would have been I was

  Drew Dillman 55:44

  going to say this is how committed Dylan is to fkT like fastest time that he could possibly not fkT. But like FDT, the fastest Dylan time, says deal in time means he's not even like he's not even paying off the bike because that requires not being able to pedal. He's thinking I need to keep pedaling and pee at the same time, or whatever is the fastest. That's how committed he is to

  Dizzle 56:09

  speed. Yeah, my stop my stopping time at Leadville this year was zero.

  Andrew Vontz 56:17

  That's phenomenal. Well, you heard it here. First, folks, going back to just the travel aspect of these races. What do you what do you all do just to make sure you get a good night's sleep? Because you are in a lot of different locations, different beds, you don't know what's going to be in the spot when you get there? Do you sleep easily everywhere? Do you have anything specific you do so you can get a good night's sleep.

  Drew Dillman 56:41

  I always like I always like to read you can always take a book with you. You know, I feel like that always winds me down no matter what to pull out a book and read. And like if you're there for a big race that takes your mind off of things too, because it's very easy to just sit there and and just let your mind kind of wander and you end up kind of down this rabbit hole of like thinking about the race and then you're probably keeping yourself awake. So I always bring a book and read. I like what Dylan does. This isn't related to sleep. But Dylan will drive to like, every race, it doesn't matter like how far the races he'll take his van. And I think the more that I think about it, and I've flown to a few races this year, is that taking your own van means you can bring as much of your own crap as you want to bring. And you're in your it's like you're bringing a part of your home with you. Because it's like something that you're familiar with your car and everything that's in it. The more I think about the lifetime stuff next year, I'm like, Yeah, I'm I'm leaning towards figuring out ways to drive to more of the races, if it means like leaving earlier and bringing the family with then you know, that's a little bit harder for me to do. But that would make it a lot more seems like it would that make it a lot more like sustainable. And when you're there, you feel a lot more prepared. Like when you fly in, I did this twice this year at gravel nets and that VW er, Utah, I flew in the day before the race, on the way to pick it, pick up my number like straight from the airport, I'd stop and build my bike on the side of the road, and then ride a part of the course like 10 or 15 miles of the course, go pick up an hour, get dinner, sleep, race, fly home, the very next day, I'm like, You're talking like less than 48 hours from door to door. And I'm racing somewhere in the middle of there. And that was good, because it gives me like, a lot of the decision making I have is like, I'm trying to maximize the amount of time I'm home and not away from home. And so that that makes sense for me. Because I don't want to spend a week at these races. I want to spend two days so that I can spend a week at home with my wife and my daughter, you know. So I think maybe that means they're going to come to more races with me next year. So that's kind of the goal is that I can our life will be at a point where they'll be able to just come with me. Yeah.

  Andrew Vontz 59:10

  Dylan, you've got the van. But what else do you do once you get to a location to ensure that you're feeling comfortable, you get a good night's sleep?

  Dizzle 59:18

  You know, I this is what I say a lot when people ask me about what to do about pre race nerves. And this is this is not very helpful advice. But this is this is true, for me at least is that the more bike racing that you do, the more that you get used to pre race nerves or the or the pre night sleep before a race. It really doesn't. It becomes a non issue at a certain point. And I think that also too has to do with how much bike racing you're doing in a year. I mean, sometimes I do get nervous for the first race of the year because I haven't done it in you know six months. I Um, but if we're, if we're at the third race of the year, fourth race of the year, I'm not very nervous and I'm not having, I'm not having any trouble sleeping, and there's not necessarily tricks that I'm doing to be comfortable and sleep better. It's just that. I mean, that's, that's part of my life. Now, you know, you don't get nervous for something that you do on a weekly basis.

  Drew Dillman 1:00:26

  One thing that I think one thing that I think Dylan, this is really cool. Kony looser came from what Switzerland and did the lifetime series didn't know a single person and I think at Unbound, so he was coming over here. He'd fly over do the race fly home, and he's basically like here by himself. And this weekend at Big sugar. All of us were in the same house. It was like Dylan and me and Adam Roberge and Coney and Jack odhran. Like a whole group of us, we're all in the same house. And I say all that say, like, at Dylan, like befriended Kony, or vice versa, I don't know. They became friends and unbound. And then it seemed like Kony didn't have anybody to hang out with. And now he's like, in with a group. And what I'm saying is, it's these, these races, like, you can go and focus on the race and get in and get out. But it's going to be a much more enjoyable experience if you can do it with other people. And I thought it was really cool when Coney told me that like Dylan and Nina were like, you're coming to these races by yourself. And they just immediately like, invited them into their group. Like no similar sponsors. Nothing but this guy is like, coming all the way from Switzerland. I was like, man, it's pretty cool. Like, and it seemed like he was having a lot of fun. Like, I liked hanging out with him a lot. I hope that he, I hope that he does the series again next year, so that I can raise him and hang out with him more. And I just met him this weekend. But yeah, I would say that like staying, but basically what I'm saying is stay with friends, because it's going to be a lot more enjoyable.

  Dizzle 1:01:59

  Yeah, and unlike you drew, I'm not I'm not a get in get out of a race type person. I like showing up early being prepared. Sometimes I even take my time leaving like you left first thing in the morning. Yeah, you had your family to get back to but Nina and I probably didn't leave Bentonville until noon or one in the afternoon. Like we went over to the outer bike demo, to just say hi to one of Nina's sponsors, and then we got lunch, and then we left like we took our time.

  Drew Dillman 1:02:31

  Yeah, if the family comes, I would absolutely be more aligned with that. But when like when my kid goes to bed at 830 I'm trying to get home before it there. You know what I mean to get in some hugs, but so I'm like, I'm totally, I'm so I'm always split. I'm like, I want to get there and do the pre ride and do all that. But the more I do that, the less I'm at home with them. So if they can come with, like the best of both worlds.

  Andrew Vontz 1:02:56

  Yeah. Yeah, completely. And I think that's another thing that's interesting for just amateurs out there that are I mean, they do and you're doing it probably every weekend, for the average amateur, whatever they're doing this like one or two times a year. So it's very challenging for it to become a routine thing where yeah, you know, they're like flying across country, they're packing a bike, they gotta do all the logistics, but at the same time, you're right. As is the case with anything in life, the more reps you have of it, the more exposure you have, the greater your stress inoculation. And to your point Drew, for example, for me at BWI, Kansas, you know, I made this an opportunity to bring together a bunch of people I hadn't seen since before the pandemic, and I had a couple of podcasts. Past podcast guests who raise came to do the event. Spencer from beyond the peloton, we've done probably 80 Plus episodes together at this point, but we'd never met in real life. So you know, like all these people, it was incredible man, like, it was so fun to get to hang out with these amazing people who I've become good friends with, but who I'd never met in real life. And then my buddy, Eric Matthys, came up from Costa Rica. And you know, I haven't seen him since before the pandemic either. So it's just an incredible experience. And now as I think about what does this look like for me, and how does it fit into my life going forward, because I'd really stepped back from all of this since the birth of my son more than seven years ago, just to focus on family and be a bit less selfish with my time. But going forward, I'm like, I don't know maybe this is the thing that I get together and do with my friends the way some people I know might like go on a golf trip. I'm gonna go do some horrible endurance event. Get together with my buddies because it's it's really fun to do hard things with people you care about. It's a lot of fun as you guys know. One other area I wanted to explore here and again, I'm gonna I'm gonna get some people from lifetime on to talk about out there. But as it is, I've watched what they've done in the past two years, which is just take this mishmash of bucket list events that on their own had a big following like Leadville, that always had maxed out Reg, every year, they rolled up all of these events. And some of them I don't think until now we're really hired, highly desirable to participate in for amateurs. But what they've done is they, they have this application process for professional athletes to get into the series. The athletes that they're selecting are world class athletes. And they also like you guys, most of them make content about the experience. So they're doing free content marketing, for the event that they're applying to get in, because they need that exposure and those results, to support their competitive careers. And that in turn, once all this content gets out there, in addition to what lifetime is doing, puts these events and these experiences in front of a much larger audience. And then amateurs really want to go do the events, and then the events start to sell out. So lifetime has created this incredible marketing flywheel where they have professional athletes having to apply to get into the event, it's highly desirable. And then amateurs want to go to the events because they're seeing all the content about them, which out it's just like kind of an incredible system like they've gotten someone else to paint the fence for them. It seems like so what does it feel like to be in that ecosystem? And as it continues to grow?

  Dizzle 1:06:36

  Yeah, well, I think to piggyback on your point that you're just making, I want to say that lifetime, they got they got some crap for this when they first announced the series, making it exclusive and having it only be 30 men and 30 women, and having this application process, and a lot of people were saying, Why are you doing that, you know, just let anybody in who wants to be in the series. I think that that was actually genius for them. And the reason for that is because when you make it exclusive, and you have to be at a certain level to even be competing, then those riders that make it in are committed to the series, that is that is what they're focusing on during the season. I mean, just just to give you an example, Erik Bruner this year didn't have a great lifetime Grand Prix, do you think he would have stuck around till big sugar? If he wasn't in the series and fully committed? Like no, he would have, he probably would have pulled out after Leadville or something.

  Drew Dillman 1:07:38

  And that's a big C one cross race and Cincinnati that we all had to miss this weekend to go do big sugar.

  Dizzle 1:07:45

  Exactly, exactly my point. And you know, I, that's what happens with a lot of series. You know, at the beginning of the year, there are a bunch of pros that are excited about the series, and then they get halfway through and they're like, I'm not doing as well in it as I would like to do. So I'm just going to focus on something else. I think that was absolutely genius for lifetime to think of that. A lot of people are still upset that there's even an application process. And you know, we can go back and forth about whether whether that's a good thing to do in gravel racing or not. But I think from a marketing perspective, it was pretty smart.

  Drew Dillman 1:08:26

  I love the application process, as long as they let me. They don't let me and I hate it.

  Andrew Vontz 1:08:34

  But I mean, I think that's part of what I love about what you guys do with your content. And what you're doing is athletes and why I've had you on the podcast separately. And why I wanted to have you back is I think that you're a great example of how this sport grows and how you get people interested in what's happening. In cycling, you have you have to have storylines. It's almost like professional wrestling, which whatever you think of it, professional wrestling is is like the apex of sports entertainment. And you have heels and you have heroes, you have very high tension dramatic storylines. And, you know, on a really minor level, I know that it's it's a bit of a joke, but kind of the running thing between you two this season, about, you know, Drew Drew's aspirations to become a lifetime athlete. The cream of the crop. Oh, yeah. You know, but, but there's, there's that aspect of it where, you know, a little bit of smack talking among friends and a public forum. Like it becomes quite interesting. And that's really what professional cycling is

  Drew Dillman 1:09:44

  this snack talk and it's all true. I don't know,

  Dizzle 1:09:50

  though. I mean, I think like, we just proved that all the smack talk you did all year was not true when I came ahead of you a big sugar.

  Drew Dillman 1:09:59

  Yeah, you do. NVMe fair and square you beat me. You're saying, like, Hey, man, next year what?

  Dizzle 1:10:06

  You know, like the smack talk is good, but you were saying you were gonna win big sugar and 20 quite a long way off the win.

  Drew Dillman 1:10:15

  Yeah, that was that was a joke but beating you was absolutely not a joke. I still think I could be you.

  Dizzle 1:10:23

  Yeah, I mean, look, if you if you hadn't had that crash, it would have been a lot closer. I'll give you that.

  Drew Dillman 1:10:29

  That's Dylan's way of saying he knows I would have beaten him too. He texted me. The day that I got third at DWR. Kansas. My wife texted me congrats. And Dylan texted me. I'm a little more scared now.

  Andrew Vontz 1:10:44

  It was an impressive result. I was there to see it. I mean, you were not far behind the winner, who was the winner of big sugar,

  Drew Dillman 1:10:51

  right? Absolutely. Yep. That's what I keep trying to tell these guys. I mean, first and second place were the same at both races. So it's only it's only mathematically correct to think that third place would have probably been the same too.

  Andrew Vontz 1:11:07

  It was a it was a big result. I mean, you had talked a lot of smack the entire year. And it kind of felt like one of those moments where you'd pointed at the fence and you'd smack the ball pretty well. And your fight it valor validated. Yeah, that you're you're looking good going into the end of the next race. But yeah, I mean, I think kind of going back to my superordinate point here. If you don't know the people who are in a sport, if you don't know their stories, if you don't know what's going on behind the scenes, it's just not that interesting. And, you know, I think part of the genius of what lifetime has done, we just touched on this is they brought in all these athletes who are out there actively telling their own stories, making their own content, taking people inside the races. And would it be way cooler if this was happening? If you guys were doing all of this, and also, you know, lifetime had their YouTube series last year? Would it be awesome if lifetime we're doing something more than that series plus, I don't know what their version of Instagram Stories is, I know that they did it during big sugar, it does feel a little bit. I would like something more than that is a fan besides going and refreshing stories 60 times during the day and having my family asked me what I'm doing when a major gravel race is going on. Because honestly like at my house, we know whether it's the World Cup, cyclocross series and Europe, some of the sea ones in the US, the classics, the tour the Vuelta like, it's always on in my house. And my kids, you know, they've gotten into professional cycling, they know who all the athletes are, but not as well as I personally know what's going on within the world of gravel because of everything that's on Instagram, and all these other places. So it'd be cool to foreground those stories more and just like, tell more of the story of like, what's going on within the race, what's going on in the background? I think it's highly relatable, because amateur athletes can go out and participate in the same events. And you can't say that of I mean, I love the Tour de France, but it's slightly different in that regard. It's not highly relatable for somebody who just goes out and rides a bike, typically, although, as we all know, there are many, like cat fours who think they could win the Tour de France based on their training peaks files. But right.

  Dizzle 1:13:28

  Well, what I what I will say is that, although it wasn't live coverage, the coverage that the that the Grand Prix had after both Leadville and after big sugar with the videos that they made, I think they put those out within a day or two, it was very quick turnaround. And anybody who knows anything about video editing should be really impressed by how quick they took that big sugar video was like 40 minutes long. And it took a lot of editing to do. So whoever was working on that was working on it from the minute the race ended, probably until they put it out. And, again, it's not live coverage, but it was about as good a coverage of a grout of a US gravel race, as you're going to see. And I was very impressed by it. And if, if that's the new standard, and they start doing that for every single Grand Prix race, and they put those things on YouTube, and they start getting 100,000 plus views per video, a lot of like us gravel racers are gonna start to become more household names, at least, you know, amongst the US cycling fans.

  Andrew Vontz 1:14:36

  Yeah, that's, that's awesome. You know, we interviewed Richard Palooka, the CEO of the Jumbo visma team on beyond the peloton, recently, and there are a lot of aspects of that conversation I found to be really interesting, but some of that really struck me was they actually regard the the American market as being extremely important, which honestly was not obvious to me based based on some of their social media and marketing things that happened this fall and how they handled everything at the Vuelta. But, you know, it's clear, I think that there's going to be some kind of convergence of what's happening with like the Creator athlete. thing that's going on in gravel and what's going on in the world tour. And coupled with we're in fleet fleets, and fluid fleets and flu threat flu fleets.

  Dizzle 1:15:25

  First time I'm hearing that you didn't

  Drew Dillman 1:15:26

  make that up. Yeah, you're an influencer. And you're an athlete and flew fleet.

  Andrew Vontz 1:15:31

  It really has a ring to it. Yeah. attribute that to so looking at 24 if you if you could rewrite the book of gravel, what would you like to see new or different from a course point of view sporting point of view how competition is organized.

  Dizzle 1:15:49

  Um, I some of the changes that lifetime is already making his changes that I wanted to see. And it's changes that people who are heavy spirited gravel type people don't like. But I'm talking about separating the pro field from the amateur field separating the men's and the women's races. Any professional woman gravel racer that you talk to wants the women and the men to be separated, they don't want to race with the men. It's just, it's just much more aggressive. And, and basically, the the tactic for them. The only tactic for them is just get with a fast group of men, which does not make for super exciting racing for the women's field. I think I think them doing that. It I know that their spirit of gravel people out there that are really upset about that they want to see gravel stay mass, you know, just a big ol mass start. I think there's a certain point where that no longer makes sense. And I think we've reached that point. So one of the changes that I would personally make is a change that's already being made.

  Drew Dillman 1:16:58

  No races above 6000 feet. That's what I don't know. That's, you know, for

  Dizzle 1:17:05

  for an east coaster for an east coaster. I actually don't mind the altitude.

  Drew Dillman 1:17:09

  Maybe you can. Because you spent two months in Colorado acclimating Dude,

  Dizzle 1:17:14

  my here's my counter argument to that. Somebody like Carrie Warner also spent plenty, you know, over a month acclimating for Leadville, and had a bad race. I think I'm just for somebody who grew up at low altitude, I think I'm genetically predetermined to not absolutely suck when I go to altitude, like so many east coasters, they

  Drew Dillman 1:17:36

  carry water examples even worse, because he did try to go for a month and he still sucked. That's what I'm, that's why I use that. That's why I'm saying they should take them out. Because even if I were to go and acclimate, there's a 50 50% chance that I still suck. Well, I think if I got into the series, that would be the hardest part of pulling together a full season would be doing well at those races. And you have to do you have to do you have to do at least one. And if you want to be considered like in the overall like in the money, you have to do well at at least one of them. Because there's seven races and three of them are at high altitude. So like,

  Dizzle 1:18:21

  drew the other thing is that if you get in, you're gonna have to get a mountain bike, and you're probably going to have to practice riding that thing,

  Drew Dillman 1:18:28

  bro, I grew up riding mountain bikes, I can ride a mountain bike, who would tell me tell me Dylan, who was the king of the dirt at DWR, Kansas, two weeks. Okay, but

  Dizzle 1:18:39

  that's was the mountain bikers. That's clearly from your cyclocross skills,

  Drew Dillman 1:18:43

  though. Does it not transfer? I think I can handle it.

  Dizzle 1:18:46

  I don't know, man. I don't know. I will say that back in college, you were quite a bit faster at Mountain Biking than me but I don't think you'd bring your mountain bike since then.

  Drew Dillman 1:18:56

  It's like riding a bike dude doesn't go away.

  Andrew Vontz 1:19:00

  I do think with altitude, it's worth looking back at what happened with the norba series in the US. And I actually think that over rotating on having races at high altitude is part of what really killed cross country mountain biking in the United States in the mid to late 90s. Why it went to Europe. And then I mean, it's coming back now because of Nikah. But by basing, you know, norba based most of their national series around high altitude locations at ski resorts, that's from a participant point of view. That's not where the vast majority of people are able to mountain bike because not everyone in the United States lives at a high altitude location with Alpine trails and if you wanted to be competitive in the nervous series, you basically had to be altitude acclimated year round and then that did not transpose into the World Cup circuit which happened and you know, the grinding circuit was happening in Europe in moral The US city center short loops in places like Madrid, and then the US was pretty much out of the hunt for 20 plus years. So, you know, but on the other hand, this is I think all about commercial considerations for lifetime and then wanting to max out registration and like their bucket list events, which I think they're doing a great job of. So from a business point of view, it makes a ton of sense for them. For you professional athletes, like you're right, Drew, like, if you want to be competitive, you're probably going to have to go be in Colorado for two months.

  Drew Dillman 1:20:33

  Yeah, who and who wants to spend that much time in Colorado? I mean, come on.

  Dizzle 1:20:38

  Colorado is awesome. Colorado.

  Andrew Vontz 1:20:41

  Yeah, yeah. Well, fantastic. Well, guys, thanks so much for your time. It was awesome to have you here today to chop it up here a bit more about the rivalry. And if I get these lifetime, folks,

  Drew Dillman 1:20:55

  you have to get them in before November the seventh because that's when they released the so you have to be able to get them on before then. So that you can tell them to let me in.

  Andrew Vontz 1:21:05

  Yeah, but we'll see. Maybe Maybe we'll be back for like a super episode. We'll see. Yeah. Until then. All right. I'm going to hit stop what