Keegan Swenson: 2023 Unbound Gravel Winner & htSQD Cyclist
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Keegan Swenson continues to dominate the gravel racing world, winning this year's Unbound Gravel in tough conditions after a runner-up finish in 2022. Swenson's prowess on the dirt is also backed by his affiliation with Santa Cruz Bicycles htSQD, an elite group of multi-surface racers.
In a conversation with Andrew Vontz, Swenson reflects on his latest muddy victory, breaks down how he experiments with race prep and gear choices, explains strategy for selecting races, and shares his priorities for the rest of the season.
Keegan is interviewed following his Unbound Gravel 2023 win.
It's no wonder that Keegan is known as the top gravel racer on a global scale: he also has the 2022 Lifetime GrandPrix series, Leadville Trail 100, and Sea Otter Classic wins under his belt, among many others.
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Choose the Hard Way is a podcast where guests share stories about how hard things build stronger humans. Sign up for the newsletter to get the story behind these stories updates and more. If you’d like to suggest a guest or say hello, DM @hardwaypod on social or send an email to choosethehardway@gmail.com.
Host Andrew Vontz has spent more than 25 years telling and shaping the stories of the world’s top performers, brands and businesses. He has held executive and senior leadership roles at the social network for athletes Strava and the human performance company TRX. His byline has appeared in outlets like Rolling Stone, Outside magazine, The Los Angeles Times and more.
Today he advises and consults with businesses and nonprofits on high-impact storytelling strategies and coaches leaders to become high-performance communicators. Find him on LinkedIn or reach out to choosethehardway@gmail.com
In This Episode:
Keegan Swenson on Instagram
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Andrew Vontz LinkedIn
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Choose The Hard Way is a Palm Tree Pod Co. production
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Andrew Vontz 0:03
Okay, so we have working audio and video equipment. We didn't have to call the Geek Squad. I feel like I've heard you on the TrainerRoad podcast so many times I feel like I want to like call coach Jonathan into the conversation and then he's not gonna be here today. Yeah, I mean, could could he be like, pop in with some listener questions for us? Yeah, that'd be good. But thanks for taking the time to do this. I didn't know when I was when I messaged you through Instagram. I didn't know if I had like the, the keygen virtual assistant, or if you're so famous now that it had been outsourced to a third party. But I was like, we'll see where this goes. And here we are.
Keegan Swenson 0:44
It's me. Sounds like just struggle to keep it. Keep it all organized.
Andrew Vontz 0:50
It's the real genuine Keegan. Are you in Tucson right now?
Keegan Swenson 0:54
I'm in Utah. And Utah? Yeah, okay.
Andrew Vontz 0:58
Okay. I didn't know if you had a commemorative Arches National Park Penny behind you. I'll just Tucson to remind you at home or what was going on. This is the real deal. This is the you are here. Nice. What have you been up to today?
Keegan Swenson 1:14
Just an easy day to day like a recovery ride this morning but a gym. Otherwise just to hang in and back to some to get some hours this weekend.
Andrew Vontz 1:25
Didn't back after? Are you still in recovery mode?
Keegan Swenson 1:28
Now just kind of transition back into training how like a week more or less off just a bunch of easy rides. And then this week, kind of slowly building back up some endurance miles nothing to nothing too crazy.
Andrew Vontz 1:41
So 2728 hours? Yeah. 26 Yeah, just keeping it Yeah, you've been super chill. Well, that's cool, man. So so the podcast focuses on how hard things build stronger humans and how doing hard things in life are usually the most fun things. Maybe not always in the moment, but over time. Clearly, you've done quite a bit of media and you're the most famous person and gravel and you know, we'll talk we'll definitely talk about cycling and about gravel but I also would really like to explore some other areas that you probably haven't talked about before and not I'm also really curious if there's anything people don't ask you about that you would like to talk about that just you never have the opportunity to chat about
Keegan Swenson 2:31
Yeah, I don't know nothing. top of my head I feel like we cover kind of wide variety of stuff normally like TrainerRoad or whatever you know. Yeah, nothing Nothing comes to mind right now I guess.
Andrew Vontz 2:45
All right, so what I think it might be interesting to talk about what kind of music your parents listened to in your house when you were growing up
Keegan Swenson 2:59
I mean, honestly, just kind of classic rock you know, I feel like both my parents just listened to our mix of Mount even though ACDC stones Bob Dylan all sorts of that kind of stuff nothing no nothing out of the ordinary those Slayer in the middle Slayer No.
Andrew Vontz 3:23
Now so how did you start getting into metal then
Keegan Swenson 3:27
Ah, finally I kind of met I was kind of listened to you know like pop punk wherever you want to go I blink with a to kind of that kind of punk stuff. Then slowly kind of like I don't know just sort of slowly found the path to metal via a different bunch of different artists and some other friends and whatever else but I don't know like it's a bit of a acquired taste you just kind of slowly keep going down the rabbit hole and find like there's so many different genres and shoot offs of metal you know? So that's cool. I appreciate it at all from Slayer to you know more of like the like new school like Bremen horizon or whatever. But yeah
Andrew Vontz 4:13
what's in heavy rotation for you right now on your listening who
Keegan Swenson 4:16
I can I can look and tell you exactly what I've been listening to was just listening to stick to your guns but I've recently discovered the new artists called in disarray from Matt Matt beers actually show me these guys. They've been really good been they've been on heavy rotation the last few days for sure. Them and Napoleon actually.
Andrew Vontz 4:41
In are these metal core bands, like straight metal? Metal? Yeah. Yeah. So Matt beers is also he's into
Keegan Swenson 4:50
thick metal hat as well. So
Andrew Vontz 4:53
yeah, nice. And when are you? When are you doing most of your listening? Do you listen to music when you're training when you're at home?
Keegan Swenson 5:00
I'm always training pretty much then you know airmen that whenever I'm in the truck cruising around then sometimes at home me it's rare that all sounds just get to sit down and do nothing but listen to to metal on the on vinyl or whatever, which is always nice. But normally it's like background while I'm training or doing something else so it's always nice and music training the impending on the day, pick the genre, pick the playlist or you just hit like the light mix and shuffle through or I'll hit up like Russell or Tobin, Matt, whoever for a new playlist and check out some new stuff.
Andrew Vontz 5:38
Is Tobin Tobin a reliable source,
Keegan Swenson 5:41
semi reliable Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 5:47
What else do you like to do off the bike? What are some of your other interests?
Keegan Swenson 5:50
Um, when I'm back in Heber, I like to ride motorcycles a bit whenever, you know, when there's time in the weather when it's not raining. It's been raining the past week here, I've been home. So I haven't really had a chance to do that. But it looks like we're coming back into proper summer here so hopefully can get out and go cruise around on those this weekend.
Andrew Vontz 6:10
What kind of riding do you do when it comes to motorcycles what kind of bikes
Keegan Swenson 6:15
I've got a Ducati that I ride in the summertime here, and then like, all season, all because I'm time on the dirt bike, spend some time off road trail and desert riding and whatever, you know, nice mix.
Andrew Vontz 6:28
What do you enjoy about doing that?
Keegan Swenson 6:31
Um, for me, like riding the street bike is kind of like meditation in a way. It's nice. There's like, no distractions, no cell phone, like, just you and the bike just cruising along, you know. So you just kind of fully focused on what you're doing. Like on the bike for me, it's, you know, I enjoy it. But it's still a job. You know, I'm out there, like, doing whatever training I have to do, which, which I appreciate. And I like that. But it's also nice to like, just check out and go do whatever I want to do on a on a motorcycle like, I'm gonna go here. I'm gonna ride for this long. I have no, there's no goals or set ambitions, you know. You know, they just get to top of some paths and hang out and watch the world go by for a bit. So that's for me. That's it. I love just like the no distraction thing, you know? Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 7:19
And so that's something you just enjoy doing when you're at home in Utah?
Keegan Swenson 7:23
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't have one in Tucson, yet. And the writing here is just so good. There's so many nice mountain roads. And you know, there's a lot of places you can go that aren't super busy and sketchy. You don't really ride any freeway or anything. So for me, that's, that's ideal.
Andrew Vontz 7:41
And so how are you spending your time in terms of locations? How much are you on the road? How much are you in Utah? And how much are you down in Arizona?
Keegan Swenson 7:51
We're split about 5050. Between Utah and Arizona. We'll spend like October learning how to lead end of October, early November for Tucson depending on like what the weather's doing here. Last year, I think we've had it down right before Thanksgiving or something. And then you know, back here after Unbound, early June, so it's like, pretty well split. But then, you know, when we're here, I feel like we're traveling a little bit more. I really spray seasons a little busier. Yeah, eye even in the winter, there's still some traveling, you know, Cape epic took up a lot of March and their sea otter and all that. So I'd say I don't know. It's pretty well split. But it seems like we're definitely on the road a little bit more when we're when we're home in Utah.
Andrew Vontz 8:35
When you think about your career to date, what do you think about is the really pivotal moments when things really transformed and your idea of what you were doing became something else, like what did you set out to do? And how has that changed over time?
Keegan Swenson 8:50
Yeah, I mean, for a long time, like my only ambitions were just going to the Olympics and racing Croc like Axio cross country and Olympic. And then you know, I missed the Olympic team in 2021. And just kind of pivoted and was like, try something different go because I was one I always had wanted to race Leadville, it was always just hard to, to do with World Cups and whatever else kind of trying to find time. You know, so we ended that, that success there and then just kind of started doing other things that I wanted to do. And I feel like the last couple of years, I've made a career of just doing what I want to do, which is you know, these long, like lifetime series was like us, it's kind of cool. I've always wanted to race unbound and gravels kind of been a fun, new challenge for me. Like, it's kind of a cool mix of like marathon mountain bike racing. And yeah, there's still some tactics from the road I appreciate so it's kind of been a bit of a learning curve for me like learning you know, some of these tactics and in a bunch dynamics, but there's also like some gravel races are more or less marathon mountain bike race, and you can just race it flat out. So it's kind of fun to have a bit of both and I appreciate both styles of racing and I feel like gravel kind of blends the two. And it's also you know, there's, there's so many, I mean, it's not, it's kind of its own, it's cool. It's has its own discipline, you know, like, you have to have some skills, you have to be a good smart bike racer, and you have to be just super fit. So yeah, between doing that, and, you know, I did like the 24 hours, well play low solo, that was some something I'd always like, want to do. You know, I've seen those guys like, tinker and all these guys doing the solo since I was raised my father races when I was a kid, but as a team, and like, I had something I was like, wanting to do, but never once a year never really found the opportunity to do it. And also thought it might like, really wreck me for a long time. And then I felt like, you know, and 20 when I do that last year, yeah, 22 Like, I felt like I was finally ready to do it. And I was like, A, there's enough time between races like, like, Fuck it, let's just send it and see how it goes, you know, and had a lot of fun doing that. And I kind of pique my interest for doing other. Like, I guess that's like, almost into the I guess that is ultra, you know, 24 hours is kind of like dipping your toe into the ultra thing. And you're wondering, like, oh, I can do 24 hours, maybe I could do like 36 or I don't I start wondering like what else you can push yourself to do, which is the cool thing about this sport is there's so many, so many ways you can go and you know, things you can do. So yeah, I don't know what's next for me in terms of like, ultra stuff. Definitely thinking about all sorts of ideas, you know,
Andrew Vontz 11:35
what have you looked at in that regard?
Keegan Swenson 11:37
I mean, the AC t 300. Like the shorter version has been pretty curious. Like, I don't know, like, right now, I'm not like super keen on doing anything that's like Mega long, because I still, I want to go fast. Like, that's why I like the 24 hour, it's like, you can still push quite hard. And I think you could push as hard for like, 36 hours, you back it off a little bit or you know, 30 hour wherever the record is. It's somewhere around there. I think you could still push pretty good there. And you know, like the Kokopelli Trail sounds cool. Like Lachlan and Pete have both gotten done that and like Jeff kibosh, and that's like 10 hours, 12, I don't know exactly what the record is, but it's quite long, you know. So I think, to me, that's like kind of a cool duration, you can still ride quite fast. And you know, you can cover some good ground, but you're not like, you're not out there, jogging away for seven days, who knows, maybe I'll, you know, get more of an itch to go do like Colorado trail or something like that. So it does kind of intrigue me. But I also know like the sleep deprivation thing kind of kind of scares me.
Andrew Vontz 12:41
When you weren't selected for the Olympic team in 2001. How did that feel? Were you disappointed? Were you excited about having the opportunity to do something new?
Keegan Swenson 12:50
Yeah, it's a bit of both, you know, I was definitely bummed. But at the same time, I was like, well, I might as well like, take advantage of this and go do go do some other stuff and felt like I kind of like found my stride in a way. Like I was always, you know, as decent at SEO. But I felt like I was always better at like, the longer kind of harder events just have like a better, bigger aerobic motor. And it seemed like it suited me better. And if I have more fun doing it, so in a way, it was like, in the end kind of worked out for the best, you know,
Andrew Vontz 13:18
why do you think you've been so well suited to these longer events? I mean, setting aside the fact that your engine and your physiology might be really well suited to it. It's also clearly like, there's a huge mental component, as these races get longer and harder. Some people really thrive in those conditions, other people fall apart when there are things that happen on the course that, you know, they don't anticipate or don't find to be favorable, like the moderate amount, for example. Right. So how do you approach those things?
Keegan Swenson 13:49
Yeah, I mean, honestly, sometimes I find like, the key success in these gravel races is just like, not giving up and just being tough. Like, there's a lot of guys out there who are really strong, but in the end, like, sometimes one little thing goes wrong, it can derail their entire race. So I think you have to go into the mindset of just not giving up and event by someone, everyone's gonna have like, one or two or more bad things happen to them, you know, whether it's bad luck, or whatever it may be. But if you just keep chugging along and keep fighting, eventually you'll keep fighting the front of the group, the front of the race, I think so. That's why I like these long races that feel well, I feel like there's in a way, they're less stressful to me because you play if you have a flat tire or puncture, crash, whatever, like you still have, you know, unbound, you have hours and hours to make it up. So the race isn't is not over till it's over. So I think that's why I appreciate these longer events is you can just like you might not always be the strongest one, but if you're the toughest one you can still win
Andrew Vontz 14:50
and heading into unbound this year. Clearly there was the mud section. There's a lot of debate about whether that should have been included or not. I just had no boss. While on who talked about his experience at unbound and what was going on inside the League Group, so we might as well talk about it because you won the race. So, you know, knowing that that section was going to be there that day. Did that change anything for you psychologically, in terms of how you felt going into the race or your strategy or tactics?
Keegan Swenson 15:19
Yeah, I mean, I was pretty fired up for it, you know, like, I knew it was going to be a pretty nasty section. Like I've pre written it and knew that like, once it rained, it was just going to turn into like that thick, nasty mud. And it rained quite hard the day before. And the night before the race, and I had heard rumors, they might, they, like, they might change the route or change the course. But they never confirmed it. So I was like, Well, I guess we're working through the mud. And I was all for it, you know, like, that kind of suits me quite well, just because I know how to how to push through the mud and also know, like, kind of good at taking care of equipment and knowing like how that all works. So I think in those situations, just once again, it goes back to just not giving up like everyone's dealing with the same shit. So it's really just you have to soldier through it and deal with it. And it was nice to have a nice, quick select Group, like 10 miles and Unbound, like, Alright, here's the, here's the lead bunch and figured like Ian, and those guys, like, I knew they wouldn't be far behind. Because I know like, he knows how to deal with that stuff. You know, even though he came from the road, he's an unbound enough times now that he knows how to handle the mud. And even though he might not be able to ride through it quite as fast as some of us who raised mountain bikes, he still knows how to like, you know, take care of his bike and get through a quick and along with him in Laughlin and attend to him and those guys, I knew they'd be back. So maybe once again, that goes back to just like, just fighting through it. And none, they'd make it back to the front if they just pushed. So. Yeah, I know, there's a lot of debate about the mud. But I was I was all for it. I think it just came down like, like, the whole thing is like with the amateurs, right? Like they sent us through the mud because they wanted the they wanted the show. And it's gonna make sure they got some cool, cool footage. And you know, it makes for exciting racing. But maybe they shouldn't have sent the amateurs through. I don't know. And that's where like, it gets a bit tricky with the gravel racing. Sometimes they're trying to balance like, what they want the amateurs to do what they want us to do. And I don't know, I think having like, they talked about having a reroute, which I think was a problem had they just said like, we're going through this, whether you guys like it or not from the beginning and made sure everyone was aware of it. That would have been totally cool. But I think like having like rumors of a reroute, like we're that was part of the problem. So I think they just they just communication in the end. But I was I was stoked that we went through the mud.
Andrew Vontz 17:46
Yeah. And once you got through the mud, there was still a lot of time left in the race. I talked to Boswell about this. What was going on in your mind between there and like getting to the campus where stuff really started to kick off and people started to kind of jockey for position Laughlin attacked, you're trying to get ready for the finale? How did you mentally manage the rest of the race?
Keegan Swenson 18:09
Yeah, I mean, I knew like, you know, coming out that my, like, I knew we still are gonna have, you know, eight and a half, nine hours left of the race or more, I guess. So it's like, at that point, you just have to stay on the gas and make those guys chase, right. Like, I don't know, we didn't know who was behind. I knew there was no one else ahead. Because there was a group of, I don't know, maybe six of us or whatever, they were rolling turns, and everyone knew, like, everyone's on the same page. Like let's just make this the group, you know, and if anyone else catches us, then they're going to have to work harder than us to bring bring back that time. So then, yeah, once morons, Pete, Laughlin, 10 dam and Vikash and vos caught up the group kind of slowly whittled down as a few guys in the front that made it through the mud that weren't quite strong enough to hang on to the group once we really got rolling and then it kind of you know, there's some flats and all sorts of chaos as usual. But everyone seemed to have the same mindset of like just make this race hard and you know, make sure no one comes back and because there was still some guys back there that were a threat you know, like Matt beers wasn't there where they go mentally probably going to see him again who never did because he ended up having a bunch of flat tire and some other stuff you know, but there was like some other guys chasing as well they're like we didn't just don't want to deal with that. So we just you know, everyone was down to rotate and keep it hard and and then, you know, every climb was like Lachlan, or P or someone was gonna attack and make it hard. But no one was really everyone was seemed like everyone's going quite good and I kind of had a feeling it was gonna come down to a sprint or like the last few mile attack so yeah, that's the way it was. It was a cool bike race you know? That was like definitely one I'll always remember just the way that everyone was down to just roll and there was really no bullshit out there which was cool.
Andrew Vontz 19:54
And when you got to the finish, shoot had you anticipated and thought through this is going to be totally clogged with amateurs finishing their races so that even entered your sphere of consciousness. Yeah, man knew
Keegan Swenson 20:04
from last year that it was probably going to be the same. Same situation, and the definitely a, you have to be ready for it and like, you know, I knew I wasn't sure you you don't know if they're gonna be there or not like there's a chance that it's going to be a clean finish chute, there's also a very good chance there's gonna be people in there. And there was quite a few of amateurs finishing their 100 mile race. So you had to kind of play the cards, right? Make sure you get around them and make sure not to take anyone out. And yeah, it was a bit it's been hectic and hopefully, hopefully they sort that out for next year. And that it doesn't happen again. Because I think it's really only a matter of time before like, someone gets hurt. Because I mean, those guys were out in their phones recording us sprinting and if they had, like, swerved and like, bumped into us or like, I don't know. And it also just would make a little bit more fair. If everyone had a nice long straight dragon in the finish, then you're not like racing. They're not they're not being part of the race, you know. But yeah, I was definitely ready for it. And it was it could be an issue.
Andrew Vontz 21:04
When you think back about the goals, you said at the beginning of the season in the program that you had, which included Cape epic, like with Cape epic, specifically, when you put that on your calendar and had it in your program? Were you concerned that it might have negative impacts on events later in the year? Did you feel like hey, there's enough distance? Because that's I mean, that's a ton, like a very large scale piece of international travel, people pretty frequently get very sick, Cape epic, and it's a brutal race. Right. So how did you think about that and how it fit into your overall schedule?
Keegan Swenson 21:39
Yeah, man, I know, like, you know, the block like that normally does me quite well, as long as I can get some time to rest afterward. See now like the key is man doing that. And I really wanted to come back. And like, I would have liked to race, Belgian waffle ride California, but I was just a little bit close to Cape epic. And it's better to err on the cautious side and make sure it makes sure I'm fully recovered before like, starting to push again. So you know, I know I can recover quite well from those efforts, as long as they're managed well, and for me, the other, you just gotta go into them fit enough to so I like to go, you know, you go into prepared and then you come out of it and can rest and then you're for me, I'm always like going really well. So, I mean, sea otter was good. And I felt good the following weekend at Whiskey 50. But I think had I tried to race a weekend before, it might have been a little bit too much. So just kind of like listening to your body and knowing like when you're good to start pushing again. And if you should pull back and rest a bit more. But yeah, I mean, it can be a bit of a gamble for some, but I know like how I respond to those efforts. And now that I can come out of them really fit as long as I respect to
Andrew Vontz 22:44
what did you get out of that experience, just as a human being going over there doing that specific race, which is quite different than certainly anything we have in the United States.
Keegan Swenson 22:54
Yeah, I mean, it's it's hard racing. Yeah, I learned that the year we did it last year, as well. And, you know, going into that race is pretty gnarly. You know, for us every day starts like a cross country race. It's wide open. And pretty much just go as hard as you can for the first hour or so. And then it kind of settles in and more like kind of Marathon racing. But yeah, there's 150 Guys like going full gas. So it's, it's pretty hectic racing. It's a lot of fun, though. It's kind of like, in a way what I wish we had more of over here. It's kind of like a mix. There's like some to track a lot of single track. It's just hard all day every day. And it's kind of unique. I think racing with a partner too, is a bit of a different dynamic than you're used to, because you're trying to take care of each other and but at the same time, race, every other race everyone else. So yeah, it's cool.
Andrew Vontz 23:48
And going, you know, again, going back to 2022 you also were at road worlds. How did that experience come about? And why was that something that you wanted to do?
Keegan Swenson 23:59
Yeah, I mean, that kind of came about with you know, there's a lot of the, like the World Tour teams were under really under threat of getting relegated just didn't have enough points. So like a lot of the EF riders and track and Mobistar whatnot, they all had to you know, go chase points. And so there weren't like the world tour guys weren't there weren't as many as normal that were able to race it. So there were some open spots and you know, I think yeah, it was like a coach's nomination through USA Cycling and I was like, Yeah, sure, I'll go give it a crack. It sounds like it's always something I would would want to want to do. Definitely a crazy experience. You know, it was like nothing I'd really ever done. I may have race rode over here before and you know, just done gravel racing and whatnot. Never haven't done any road races that big. So it was definitely like just thrown straight in the deep end and I think it was in the end it was good. You know, I think I learned a lot and can take take it right learn there and apply it to gravel and mountain bike racing like it's definitely it all you can, they all kind of blend together at a certain point and you can learn from each of them. So it was a cool experience.
Andrew Vontz 25:06
What did you feel like you've learned specifically whether it was from like travel preparation, what actually went down inside of the race what was different or new for you,
Keegan Swenson 25:15
it was mostly like the bunch dynamics like being in a peloton that big and everyone, you know how to move through the group efficiently without using too much energy. So that was quite difficult for me. And I kind of feel like I kind of got the hang of it, hang of it as the race went on. But yeah, as a lot like, it feels like you're constantly trying to swim upstream, you know, because everyone wants to be in the same spot or wants to be in the front. So you have to find the efficient way to get there without like, just doing a ton of power on the outside in the wind. It's like, just trying to slowly work your way up and and then trying to stay there. You know, sometimes you find yourself at the front of the next thing, you know, you grant a few turns, and you're spat right out the back have to do it again. So yeah, I think it's like after doing that, then you can come out, come back over here and race grab one or go, it's easy to stay in the bunch. Now it's no problem. At first, it was a bit intimidating, you know, racing in these like, because mountain bike racing, like you have to start and it's packed and hectic. That's only a couple minutes long. And then you're then you're into the trail and kind of calms down a little bit. Whereas that it's you know, it's six hours of kind of hectic, sketchy this. So yeah, just a lot, kind of different style.
Andrew Vontz 26:28
And when you went in did road worlds, there was a lot of speculation based on how you did and gravel last year and your power profile people looking at how you performed in these really long, hard races that you might go to the World Tour. Was that something that you thought about?
Keegan Swenson 26:48
Yeah, and it was something we talked about it and looked into a few options, but nothing really was going to be exactly what I wanted to do. Because I really did. I didn't want to like fully give up racing off road, you know. So yeah, we've been cool if we could, you know, blend a program together. But I'm also happy, like, where I ended up, like I love doing what I'm doing and when you know, when change it for anything. So I think I in the end made the right decision to stay racing off road, there's still a lot, a lot more to be done.
Andrew Vontz 27:16
If you had a magic wand, and you could put together some fantasy scenario where you could do road, and everything else that you love doing, what would that program look like?
Keegan Swenson 27:26
I mean, it'd be really cool to race, you know, some of those classics, the spring classics, strategy, onkey and rupay. whatnot. I think those races that suit me quite well, it seems like they're not too far off of like some of the really hard gravel races, obviously, it's different. But in the end, I think it's kind of similar style of racing in the sense that it's like really hard. We're on the cobbles and there's some steep part climbs, and it's just long and kind of arduous. So I think those races, it's races would suit me quite well. But yeah, maybe someday I'll get to do them. But you know, we'll see.
Andrew Vontz 28:00
Is it something that you're still considering doing? Are there active conversations to explore that for 2024? Or have you just kind of shut the door on it?
Keegan Swenson 28:09
Right now we're just fully focused on on the off road scene over here. And also like, go do some of the UCI gravel World Series and gravel at UCI gravel World Championships, whatnot. And then there's also some marathon, mountain marathon and mountain bike races. I'd like to do a marathon worlds and some other events like that. So yeah, we're just really focused on that right now.
Andrew Vontz 28:33
What do you enjoy about this program that you've put together? Obviously, I don't know you very well at all. But you strike me as somebody who's really happy doing what you do, which is not the case for everybody. And jobs generally. And even within professional cycling, there are a lot of people who are like, Whatever, I'm just punching a clock. I happen to be good at this thing. I get the sense that you actually love what you do. And it brings you a lot of joy. Is that true?
Keegan Swenson 28:59
Yeah. I mean, I love what I do. You know, and I think I'm definitely stoked to be in a situation where like with the Santa Cruz hit squad team, like they definitely give me a lot of freedom to do what I want, you know, we kind of build a schedule early this season, like what do you want to do this year? You know, so we have like, the lifetime series, a couple of Belgium waffle rides, and then we have you know, some mountain bike races Cape epic, it's more or less just do the schedule that I want to do. And you know, I think for us that like in the end that helps bring success to you because if I'm doing stuff that I want to do that I'm going to be better at it than if you're forcing me to race or race all these random races and race too much. I think. For me, I like to focus on you know, a few key races a year rather than you know, spread myself too thin. So I've kind of learned that like I'm better just to cherry pick a few races and go all in on those rather than race every weekend and just kind of crack on because I do love I love racing and I love training but I I need to I think for me I can only race so much and I push myself that deep so often. So I think I have to kind of manage that. Otherwise I can get a little, I just kind of get myself a little too excited and you start racing too much. And then you end up just like kind of frying yourself mentally and physically.
Andrew Vontz 30:14
What event would you consider to be your favorite event of all the events that you competed in?
Keegan Swenson 30:20
And I think, and her descending unbound is definitely the top of that list, I think because it's so it's such a unique race in the sense that it's like 10 hours long. You can have all sorts of crazy conditions, like equipment plays a massive role. So you know, I've tested all sorts of different tire combinations, and just different gear gearing and bike setup. And then you have to deal with all your spares. And you trician and your aid slash pit stations, like I think there's so much that goes into it. And I really think that's like, kind of a that's my favorite parts of racing is like figuring out, like, what else you can do to win the race other than just ride your bike hard. So yeah, it's kind of become one of my favorite races, you know, I spend like months down in Tucson, the winter just kind of dialing in everything and writing a bunch of gravel and playing with equipment and tire pressure and different inserts, and there's so many, there's so many variables that I think it's cool. And then you go into the race, and you have to like, kind of execute everything to the best of your ability. And yeah, that's just a cool one.
Andrew Vontz 31:26
From having Tobin on the show, he talked to me a bit about your methodologies around trying to make sure you have your equipment, not just totally dialed in, but that you have everything optimized, you're getting the very most out of it, that you have the very best equipment. Could you talk a little bit about data approach. And in practice, like when you're down in Tucson, and whatever it is, you're trying to figure out, this is going to be the best tire for these conditions. Or, you know, I'm going to do this amount of sealant, whatever it is, how do you conduct those experiments? And like what are you tinkering with now, if there's anything that you can share,
Keegan Swenson 32:03
I mean, honestly, down in Tucson, like the gravel is so rugged and so gnarly that I just go out and like, more or less like, try and break things, you know, like see, make sure the wheels hold up, make sure the tires hold up. Like I run like aluminum handlebars and all that stuff my bike just to make sure everything's the most durable that can be if you crash and like snap a drop or if your bar slip you can only talking to five Newton meters. Like there's all these like small things that I've like figured out. That just worked for me. So I think I like to ride the bike. I push it quite hard. I ride it like it's a mountain bike. So I think I have to find the equipment that works. And, you know, Santa Cruz makes some of the most I'd say one of the some of the most durable bikes and then like preserve wheels as well. Like, I grew out, man racing on roadway roadwheels you know, we just slam those things around and yeah, then like play with various different tires. You know, I've experimented the Rambler and like silk shield, and then you have my trusty refus, which I ran last year this year. It was like with the mud and whatnot. I didn't want to gamble. So I went went back to the Rambler. Yeah, but I spent time on both just like making sure I know both, you know what pressures to run and yeah, you know, I set the bike up one bikes, I think that's the most efficient way for especially for unbound eliminate a front derailleur, you eliminate like one less thing to break, you know. So it's nice that we run this ramp, like the mullet setup with the road front and the eagle in the back. So you have a wide range. And yeah, I think it's just the most durable setup. So nothing that I'm like really messing with right now. I found my bike was pretty much dialed for unbound. By now it's, you know, we're changing things around for Crusher and these other races, but I don't really vary too much from the middle you just swap out tires and building it will change wheels based on the course in the profile. But otherwise, prior on the same gearing and you know, same handlebar stem and all that stuff.
Andrew Vontz 34:02
When you look at the landscape of events right now, there are certain events it they're kind of mandatory for you to do because there's everything that's in the lifetime series, of course, then as you mentioned, there's the BW er stuff. You've done Cape epic a couple of times. Is there anything domestically that you'd like to try that you just haven't had time to go do on the event side of things like are there any gravel events that you've heard about that have caught your eye?
Keegan Swenson 34:26
Um, I don't know. Nothing like that. I haven't done I guess yet. I would like to go back and give BWI San Diego another crack. So my first attempt there, I kind of had a big crash and kind of blew up and it wasn't a great day. So when I get back, I want to go back and give that one other go. That one's kind of like the original gravel race, I guess. And it's cool because you kind of you're racing, smaller tires and normal and it's kind of a unique race. And also you just spent a lot of time training down there in that area in the winter. So for me, it's like, you know, kind of another are considered like I've written all those all those roads, and I spend my time down there. So it's like to get get in there crack. Otherwise, I don't know. There's a lot of cool events, you know, hard to say exactly where they're ones. Yeah, but like traveling where the Belgian waffle reds. So a lot of those are really fun. I haven't done one that I dislike the other one Arizona was on the phone and just hard to fit him in, you know?
Andrew Vontz 35:25
Yeah, definitely. When you think about events, are there any characteristics of events that you think like, these are the things that make for a really great event that you'd like to see more of an events generally,
Keegan Swenson 35:39
in terms of gravel racing, I love the ones that have like just a very wide variety of terrain, like, it's really cool to have, you know, some kind of technical single track, but also like a lot of really fast pavement intersections that are draftable. So it's like you have to be good by color. And it's like, then you can kind of gamble on tires a little more, if you want to run small ones, or big ones. Like I like those events that like, there's no perfect bike and there's no perfect setup, you kind of have to pick what you're going to set your bike up for and kind of go all in on it. Yeah, I think that's, I wish there was more like the DWR seems to do a pretty good job with that, like Arizona had some singletrack it had some fast stuff. Seems like, you know, unbound is all kind of the same kind of terrain. So it's cool to have more races like other races that had more varying terrain. Yeah, I know. That's kind of a tough question. I do like the ones do that to have that are like somewhat appreciated. Like I'm blown away as to feed zones you know, it makes it like simple kind of self supportive. I don't mean no like gravel locos has like the mandatory two minute stop thing, which I think is stupid. I don't think you should I should tell you how to race your bike. That's why I haven't done one of those. Maybe they'll change that. Like you want to stop for water stop if you don't don't like I don't know why the you know why the trends force you how to race? Yeah. Like cool events out there.
Andrew Vontz 37:06
Definitely a lot of heat right now about pitstops. In fact, today, I got like four different people forwarded me different Instagram posts where people were mad or have different points of view about the pitstops at unbound? What's like, what's your point of view?
Keegan Swenson 37:22
I mean, I think it's cool to have it be part of the race, you know, like, that's, we're in another and I feel like I was there for maybe 10 seconds. And then the second one, I didn't stop I just picked bottles up and went. And, you know, that's like, kind of a gamble that those in the front take like if you if you stop for longer sure you can get mixed. You have everything and whatnot, if you don't stop and that's a free few seconds. And it seemed like everyone in the front was on board to hit it fast. And keep it rolling. Because that's like, free time when the group's behind you know, so I think it's like, it's also like, part of the just how it part of the race and it's fun to like, talk to your mechanic and figure out all the strategy make sure you have everything you need strapped to the bottle or whether it's in your pack or whatever you're doing. I think like having a quick quick pits is you know, it's kind of fun. You know, it's like that's what they do in car racing. It's no different than bike racing. Just be the same thing. Just especially possible is no reason you should be like, dilly dallying for a minute and a half and there whatever, you know. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's cool in a fair game to do whatever the race is like steamboat that have all these neutral feet zones and like some of us stopped, some don't. I don't know it's cool to have, you know, different strategies.
Andrew Vontz 38:36
Has Alejandro Valverde reached out to you to get some gravel tips?
Keegan Swenson 38:40
No. He has not. Not yet. He's had to figure those out on his own. Yeah, I don't know. I thought
Andrew Vontz 38:47
for sure. He was gonna show up at unbound.
Keegan Swenson 38:49
Yeah, remembers he was but didn't see him there.
Andrew Vontz 38:53
Yeah, not yet. I feel like it's the day is coming, though. When he shows up at one of these events. It just feels like it's inevitable. But I mean, like you mentioned Tinker earlier. Of course, one of the heroes of that, like, early to mid 90s norba scene and like before him those guys like tarmac. And with that early normal stuff, you know, the US pretty much invented professional mountain bike racing. And then over time, we saw euros coming over, and then all the action moved to Europe. There's now the UCI gravel series, which there's no way it's going to replace kind of the heritage of these events in the US. But where do you see the sport going as there's greater and greater interest not just from the industry, but from people who are current active World Tour pros, actually.
Keegan Swenson 39:42
I mean, I I think it's cool. You know, I think having more more competition and you know, like, more in the sport. This makes it makes it better and more fun for everyone. And it makes racing more interesting to watch like, you know, unbound, like five years ago definitely wasn't nearly the same. as it is now, you know, it's like now there's a seven, seven up sprint, you know, which is just shows how competitive the fields are over here. And, you know, every year, there's more and more European racers. And you know, there's some, you know, we have Matt beers from South Africa, and you have some all these coming and racing. And I think these races are just getting more and more competitive. And it's cool to have a mix of mountain bikers like gravel specialists, and then you have the world tour guys coming in and, and racing as well. And it's, everyone has their own set of skills and abilities. And it's kind of cool to see them all coming together and kind of see who comes out on top after 10 hours of racing and unbound or whatever it may be. Damn curious, like, what will happen with the gravel World Series right now? It seems like it's slowly growing. I'm not sure if it'll like really take off or not. And like, if they'll start, you know, having more bigger races over here that all of us will go teach right now, there's only a couple and really no one attends them, because they're just kind of weird times. And sponsors don't care about him as nearly as much as like unbound or, you know, steamboat or Belgium authorized or whatever. So, yeah, I don't know, it's hard to say, either way, I think I mean, gravel is growing. And the cool to see it, you know, keep progressing.
Andrew Vontz 41:12
I mean, at the pro level, it almost feels to me a bit like early UFC and pride. I don't know if you've followed mixed martial arts at all. But I mean, in the early days, it was this contest of which style is going to win when you put them together to compete. And I mean, we're seeing that right now. Right? It's like people from all these different disciplines dropping into these races. And that's pretty exciting. Yeah,
Keegan Swenson 41:38
I think it's cool. And it's a lot of fun, fun to race, you know, because everyone has their own tactics of how they can win and everyone, you know, people are better at certain things. So I think it's an extra exciting racing. And then it makes, you know, like, oh, I need to work on this, right? It gets stronger here and figure this out. So it's kind of I think it's made me a lot better bike racer, racing, racing gravels to improve my mountain biking, and everything.
Andrew Vontz 42:04
How has your life changed in the last, you know, 12 to 18 months, you've had so much success, it seems like when you show up your competitors seem to have they seem to actually fear you is kind of the vibe I get from watching social media, the lifetime YouTube series and then listening to other podcasts with other gravel pros, or even having them on my podcast, you've been such a dominant force. So how have things changed for you, if at all,
Keegan Swenson 42:34
I mean, man, in terms of my like, day to day, nothing's really changed. You know, I'm just going about my life doing my thing. I think that's what works for me, like, I just, you know, train hard, and you didn't show up to win every race I do. And whether I win or lose, I'm, you know, give it everything. And I think, for me, I just focus on myself, I don't really worry about like me, and most the time, I don't even look at the start list of who's racing, like, it doesn't matter, I just show up and do my thing. And I think try and keep my head in a good spot. You know, just worry about myself. And I don't know how to say, but honestly, nothing's really changed a whole lot, you know, tune few more podcasts and stuff like that, in terms of like social media obligations, but nothing is. Nothing's changed in my world. So yeah, don't keep it that way. Just try and keep things mellow. And train hard. You know, keep my head down. Keep grinding.
Andrew Vontz 43:32
What kind of loser Are you?
Keegan Swenson 43:36
I mean, I guess I'm a good a good one, in some ways, but I'm more just upset at myself. You know? Like, I was pretty bummed me out second place, unbound last year, and basically just put a target on this race. And I was like, you know, it was all in to win. And was, you know, just made sure it didn't happen. Fischer with second didn't happen again. Yeah, I mean, I'm always, you know, like, if someone's better than me, and they beat me, then that's, that's good. Like, you know, that I've tried to figure out why and what I did wrong and why I didn't win. But you know, there's always brother that was stronger, whether they were smarter. I just try and figure that out and figure out like, what went wrong? I wouldn't say like, mean, not a sore loser. So I'm always stoked for whoever, whoever it is. That wins. But I'm still bummed at myself. Like, I feel like for me, like, I don't know, I just I don't like losing a race to win. And I mean, that's, that's the way it is.
Andrew Vontz 44:36
When you last unbound last year, what were your takeaways that you focused on to make sure you'd be able to win the race this year?
Keegan Swenson 44:44
Honestly, it's mostly tactics. You know, like last year, like the group was big for quite a while and I just did more work than a lot of guys. And I think in the end, like I learned this need to pay more attention to who's working and who's not and kind of read the race of Little better, because sometimes in these races, it works to just ride hard, you know, you can just go to the front and hammer and just shell guys. But in a race like unbound with so much drafting and so long, you can't, you can't just ride that hard that long and let people sit in. And then also, like, you know, the finish the last few miles, like just dialing in that and knowing how to respond to attacks, and you know how to, you know how to finish a sprint, because I think for me, like, I am pretty good at winning in like a two or three up scenario in a sprint finish, but I had no idea how to how to deal with a sprint with I think there was five or six of us and last year, and I was like, Man, I, I went into that with zero confidence, you know, that last few miles, I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, I'm just gonna try and follow wheels here. And though they just kind of worked me over, you know, so I think I learned my lesson and, you know, tried to figure out a better, better way. And you know, it's nice, like Tobin's a really good bike racer, he's done a lot of really good cross racer, and he's quite good at crits and whatnot. So having him on the team has been helpful for me. I think, like having an unbound, we know, we wrote the last few miles and ran over all sorts of different scenarios of like, if he would, if someone attacks here, then I can go if you know, just where to launch the sprint. So I think, yeah, that's been beneficial. And I'm just always open that coach is also helpful with tactics, and you know, how to how to win races from different ways. Because coming from the mountain bike, it's like, yeah, if you're, you just have to be strong, and just play your cards right in terms of fitness, and not blow yourself up. But in these gravel races, you also also have to worry about other people and what they're doing and not worry about. It's not exclusively about fitness. So you have to make sure everyone's working equally and if they're not working equally, then force them to find a way to make that happen. So yeah, I guess those were kind of my takeaways from last year.
Andrew Vontz 46:53
Yeah. And so unbound was like, a huge focus for your season this year. When you look at the rest of the season, I'm sure winning the lifetime Grand Prix isn't objective. Is there anything else that is a super high priority for you that you'd be really thrilled? That's kind of a lifetime goal, so to speak, that you want to make happen this season?
Keegan Swenson 47:16
I mean, unbound was a big one this year. You know, last year, man, I really wanted to win, lead Leadville and steamboat back to back that was like, I mean, I was unbanned was a goal last year, too, but I blew that one. So then I'll focus was on Leadville and steamboat and this year, I checked on bound off the list, which was a really big relief, you know, excited, huge target on that one. So definitely nice to get that monkey off my back and on the rest of the season just feels like I've had a in a way, like there wasn't much pressure from sponsors or anything, it was just my own my own desires. During this year, I now want to get the record at Leadville, that would be pretty sweet. But it's a bit of a balance of like trying to win the race while also trying to get the record. So I mean, obviously there's conditions play a huge part and whatever else, but that's a that's a big goal this year.
Andrew Vontz 48:05
Is there anything that you're doing different in your preparation for Leadville this year to get the record? Or is it just taking the same approach and seeing what happens on race day
Keegan Swenson 48:16
in terms of training, I think more or less the same. I mean, I haven't talked to the coach a whole lot about what the plan is, but my guess is we're just trying to do the same leading up to fitness was good, it's more or less just at that altitude, it's just kind of learning how if you can push a bit harder, you know, kind of push the limit a little more, I think I have a little more to give. So just a matter of like, kind of squeezing it a little bit more. And then dialing in equipment like I don't know, I'm gonna race the same setup or I'll change things, but need to play with that a bit too.
Andrew Vontz 48:47
And with the program that you have right now, whether it's like logistics travel, a specific race, what do you find to be the most difficult about the program that you have now managing it and the competition it's,
Keegan Swenson 49:02
um, honestly, it's everything, it's pretty smooth. You know, we've got a pretty good pretty dialed program. You know, my mechanic Myron is a huge help in keeping all the equipment dialogues I think, kind of the biggest the biggest task for the like a lifetime series is like trying to balance you have so much stuff, you know, you have gravel bikes and mountain bikes, and you know, some right some trips, you have to bring both and it's just a matter of like managing all that. And then it's a bit tricky in terms of like, keeping race fitness there, because there's like a race seems like there's a race, like every month. You know, some races you have, you're not expecting to be like fully at your best, then you kind of have to just like, you know, and there's other guys who might be like targeting that race. So you kind of have to manage that a bit. And then, you know, just aim for the ones that you really want to perform at. But yeah, so I think those are the biggest challenges but you know, if you got a good program you're on so
Andrew Vontz 50:01
When you look at the careers of other pros, are there any careers that you really look up to? Or that you'd like to emulate? Or are you just happy doing your own thing?
Keegan Swenson 50:11
Ah, because happy doing my own thing. You know, like, I've really look up to guys like Todd wells. And that was for me, that was like, one of the big reasons I started racing mountain bikes, you know, like, I used to watch those guys race it. Deer Valley normal race here when I was a kid, and I was doing the little like grass crit race to have for the kids and saw them racing mountain bikes. You know, but I've kind of, in a way found what I want to do. And I don't really like I'm not really emulating anything anyone's done. Like, I feel like I've kind of carve my own path more or less, you know, racing gravel and mountain bikes and 24 hour solos and Cape epic and yeah, jumping in a row worlds and stuff. Like I think that's can be a bit of a mistake sometimes. So like, follow someone else's path too closely. In a way you kind of have to carve your own and do your own thing and do it keeps you stoked, otherwise, you're not going to make it as long as the sport as you think. So I think those guys who had great success did what they wanted to do and what they were good at. So if you try and do exactly what they did, it's not necessarily going to work for you.
Andrew Vontz 51:09
Yeah, well, Keegan, it certainly seems to be working. I'm grateful that you took time to connect today to have this chat. So thanks for joining me, man.
Keegan Swenson 51:18
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's a good time.