Cory Richards - Presence is the Real Summit - Beyond Everest & Life as a National Geographic Adventurer of the Year & Photographer
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Charisma, fame, good looks, superhuman physical and artistic achievement. Some people seem to have done everything and to be everything you dream of becoming. And as Cory Richards shares in this interview, everything can be nothing and anything can be the opportunity for presence, mindfulness and connection to who and what matters most.
Cory climbed Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen in 2016 and was the first and only American to climb one of the world’s 8,000 meter peaks in winter, where he almost died in an avalanche and took one of the most famous photos of his career that became the cover of the 125th anniversary issue of National Geographic. Cory has been a National Geographic Adventurer of the Year and National Geographic Photographer fellow.
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His memoir, The Color of Everything, out July 9th, tells the story of his journey with mental health and how it has shaped his life, his path as an adventurer and artist and his decision to walk away from climbing, photography and shed his former identities to move to LA and be a writer.
Once I started reading The Color of Everything, I couldn’t put it down and since I finished it, I can’t stop thinking about it. It’s a profound, must-read book and I’m sure you’ll see it on many best of the year lists come December. (Pre-)order it now here.
I worked with Cory in support of his Everest expeditions in 2016 and 2017 and since I started this podcast in 2018, I’ve wanted to have him on the show. I’m glad it took six years of exchanging messages for this interview to happen, because now is the right time and I’m excited to share it with you.
Choose the Hard Way is a podcast about how doing hard things is fun. Please help more people find this podcast. To do that, just hit subscribe and rate the show five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this episode with someone you care about.
We are in year six of Choose the Hard Way and it’s going to be a big one with some amazing guests and the chance for us to spend some time together as a community at a few gatherings and live events.
To make it all happen I’m open to mission-aligned sponsors I’d be proud to share with my audience directly supporting the show this season. If you or someone you know have a company that wants to reach the high-achieving, high-influence, highly networked people who listen to this show and do amazing things, then send a DM to @hardwaypod or email us at choosethehardway@gmail.com.
Go to choosethehardway.com to sign up for the newsletter and if there’s someone you think would make a great guest, DM @hardwaypod.
Choose The Hard Way is a Big Truck Production. Anthony Palmer at Palm Tree Pod Co is the producer and editor and Emily Miles is head of digital and marketing. Jeffrey Nebolini is the world-renowned designer behind our brand identity and the Choose the Hard Way logo. The content for this show is created by @vontz.
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Andrew Vontz 0:01
Okay, now let's get really fucking serious. Are you in? Whatever man the way I do this? Like, we'll just wrap for a minute and then at some point it will become an interview. But so are you in LA right now? Or where are you?
Cory Richards 0:11
Yeah, I'm in. I'm in Venice. I had moved here about three years ago, I lived in Santa Monica and then I moved to Venice. Okay.
Andrew Vontz 0:19
So yeah, that was my guess, based on you describing going on the pedestrian bridge over the freeway? Yeah. I was like, Oh, okay. Like that's in Santa Monica. I know where that is. Yeah, yeah,
Cory Richards 0:32
I lived right on Ocean Avenue for a while. It was great. That's nice.
Andrew Vontz 0:37
So how do you think about who you are in Los Angeles versus who you've been in other places?
Cory Richards 0:45
That's such an interesting, that's a really great question. You know, I think part of like, the journey that I've been on over the past three years is really been about understanding identity. And, and seeing that for a long time, like I had attached, like an action to an identity or an identity to an action. And I think that is something that we a lot of us do, we literally say I am, I am this. And so, you know, I guess I think of myself a little bit more nebulously here like there's a little like, I don't have the such a such a strong identification with I am an athlete, or I am, like, Shit, I haven't been an athlete for three years. And even when I was, you know, like, I think that was might have been a little bit of a dangerous sort of ego attachment to say, I'm a professional athlete. So right now, I think of myself just as in transition, and I'm not sure that that's a transition that comes to an end, but also exploring different aspects of creativity and art and where I want to put my energy and, and how that's changing me. So there's a little bit less of a, I'm so certain of everything and a little bit more of like, I don't really know anything. And and, you know, let's figure it out day by day. So there's a little bit more, how do I say I view myself is a little bit far more relaxed here? I'll just say that.
Andrew Vontz 2:10
Yeah. And just generally the vibe of LA and what feels possible in that city versus other cities that you've been in? Does it feel the same? Does it feel different?
Cory Richards 2:20
Well, one, yeah, one thing I'll say is it that it does feel like there's the ceiling is higher here, if there is a ceiling at all, I mean, LA, is the epicenter of entertainment arts in the world. I mean, it really, it really, it is, it has been for a long time, you know, of course, other cities have that same vibe, but LA is a melting pot that brings all sorts of people together, to you know, pursue their dreams, and a lot of that is, and most a lot of them are creative dreams, right? A lot of that is driven by the idea of fame and wealth and all that, you know, the bullshit that ultimately everybody who gets it finds up doesn't matter. But they got to go on that ride. But because of that, there is a there's an energy here, everybody seems to be doing something, which is both so beautiful, and totally exhausting, because there's a lot of bullshit. But then also, there's a lot of real shit. And you know, and you meet fascinating, interesting people who are really, really, really trying and succeeding at, you know, either changing the world, or, or, or making amazing art or films or whatever it is. And when you find the real ones, and you find those really genuine people, you know, you hold on to them. And one thing I will say is, I've never ever ever had a community, like I have here in LA.
Andrew Vontz 3:49
And what is that community like?
Cory Richards 3:53
Predominantly are that I'll say, the most healing piece of of moving here has been men. I've found incredible men. And they are, they've changed everything. And I think this is one of the issues that I'm so passionate about right now in life is, is really helping men and looking at the issues that we face. We hear so often oh, we're fake. There's a crisis of masculinity. I don't know about that. I don't want to call it a crisis. I think there's a recalibration of masculinity taking place. And I do think that until we undergrad understand the degree to which men have been impacted by the system we live in, and what it teaches us about manhood, masculinity, sexuality, all of these things until we understand the degree that we've been impacted. We can't make we we're not going to make a lot of forward progress. So you know, I participate in a men's group. My entire social circle is a Stick around basically one guy named Kenny Kane who owns Oak Park CrossFit, LA, it's not it was one of the first CrossFit gyms it's much so much more than that now. And, you know, if I look back, almost every single person I know, here is Senator, he's like, sort of the center of the wheel. And, and through our friendship, you know, he started this men's group called tree house that we and we, and I've been doing it with him now and sort of sit alongside him in facilitation of some of those groups. You know, I've been doing it for two, two years now. And so, I mean, this is a long story. All I'm saying is, men have changed my life and having positive healthy relationships with men that exist outside of activity, but are more based in values, virtues, and alignment of purpose. And we can do totally different things in the world, those relationships have changed everything for me.
Andrew Vontz 5:59
And how does that change the manner in which you're, you're interacting with other men in this instance? And like, what are you sharing that's perhaps different than how you might have interacted with, with men in your life before you had this experience?
Cory Richards 6:16
Well, I think, for a long time, you know, I had a really tough relationship with my brother growing up, and, and so in some ways, I think I was really looking for, I've always been looking for brothers. And when you, you know, you go into climbing, what I found is like climbing, because it's high intensity activity creates these bonds very, very quickly. It's almost like trauma, bonding, in some ways, which, you know, you're just like, holy shit, we could die. Now we're brothers for life, when in actuality, you're brothers, so long, as you know, in general, what I noticed, so long as you're both still climbing, and you share that, that that core activity. And I was trying to be very, very, you know, open and honest with my, with my male friends, I think what's different here is sort of what I hinted at earlier, is that our relationships are surrounded around our purpose and clearly defining what that purpose is. And clearly defining what the values that that purpose requires are the actions that that purpose requires the relationship that that purpose requires, and then creating an accountability net around that, so that our friendships are all about helping each other push towards our purpose now, and always recalibrating around that, you know, so like, when we get together, you know, when we get together in official capacity, there's, you know, we're not drinking, we're not it's not in a bar, we're not watching us, but that's great. That's a different thing, though, we're actually looking at a specific set of tools. So we have said, okay, like, where am I at energetically? Where am I putting my time? How does that align with, you know, the relationships, the actions, the environments that I that are going to support my growth. And in doing so, you open up and you start to become much, much more vulnerable, because you feel very safe and, and cared for by other men, and then you're able to share things that we don't get to share in, in COVID, relationships, or very few COVID relationships. So there's a, there's a, there's a container for safety there, that becomes really, really helpful so that when you show up in your relationships, whoever they're with, you're just more grounded, you're more centered, because you know, you have this big safety net of support to fall back on. And that gives you just, you know, it's like, we always talked about, it's like, you know, the treehouse groups are the practice, right? And then real life is the game. But she's just like, oh, shit, I gotta go practice more, you know?
Andrew Vontz 8:53
Yeah, I've been preparing for this interview. And I think I've spent more time preparing for this interview than I have any interview that I've done in 108 interviews now. I was I was thinking about, you know, your work as a photographer or a filmmaker, a writer, of course, which we're going to get to in part two of this interview more deeply. But when you're constantly mediating what you're doing, there's an intimacy to that in the relationship that you might be able to have with your own experience through introspection and reflection, or through the intimacy you might have with subjects you're photographing, for example. And at the same time, I think particularly with photography, you have something physically between you and the experience that you're having. So there's some kind of distance and how do you think about your capacity to be present with where you are now in life in relation to you know, who you are and who you have been professionally and how has that evolved?
Cory Richards 9:51
Oh, man, you know, great question. Thank you for asking it. It's such a great question. I just wrote a little piece about So, this is also fun. I have a second book coming out in October. So whoa,
Andrew Vontz 10:05
wow. That's amazing. Yeah. Oh, man.
Cory Richards 10:09
And it's a photo book. It's a coffee table book. So, and it, there's something that there's a piece in that it's really comes from a journal entry
that talks about this idea of presence. I was playing with it in my head, I'm like, Well wait is is you know, people often talk about photography as this, you know, this act of presence. And I actually disagree. I think I think that's a lovely, it's kind of a trope, and I agreed with it for a long time. But then when I really started thinking about I was like, well, actually, was I ever present to any of that? Or was I actually witnessing it? Or was I was I, if at best was I present with the creative act? IE, like, or I guess what I'm saying is, if I have a camera in front of my face, what I'm actually looking at is not the moment itself. I'm calculating light, I'm calculating composition, I'm calculating motion movement, serendipity, yes, I understand conceptually, that what before me is beautiful. That's why I'm taking a picture or interesting, right. But once that camera is there, my brain is doing something entirely different. It's interpreting through a lens, right? That is not a present moment. It's a creative act, it's a flow moment. So you can be this is the way again, I can only speak for myself. But there's a there's a flow and flow is different than presence. Presence, incorporates everything presence is is a is a witnessing to the totality of something. And even an even almost transcends the witnessing concept of flow as it relates to photography is a looking and combining and slipping into into into making a moment that translates outward, right? So I know some people will go, Well, this is not I just think I got that's amazing.
Andrew Vontz 12:05
I got no idea. I've
Cory Richards 12:07
never seen no idea what just happened. I got fireworks, the world's telling me I'm saying something, right. Flow is often considered confused with with presents. And so again, they're close, they're related. But what I realized was, you know, as I've been going through my life and looking back at pictures and seeing what I was, you know, or how I identified at least, that so much of, of what I saw, I never witnessed, you know, or so much of what I witnessed, I never saw, and I was I just wasn't present to it because I was constantly spinning, thinking forward for for it, okay, how to. And the other thing that I because I was confusing the two things, I was chasing the calm of the moment of flow. And confusing it as like presence, when in fact, I just kept speeding up, I kept looking, looking, looking looking looking. And sort of the premise of that journal entry in the book is, is that like, it, I had to stop looking and fight in order to finally see, and I'm still learning how to see. And that required me, you know, slowing down the travel stuff, I don't need to go like, you know, I don't need to go climb huge mountains every year. There's so much marvelous shit in my backyard, that if I slow myself down enough, I can actually see and feel like holy, like this is amazing. Like, this is amazing what exists right here. And there's a guy Berg's quote, he says, you know that the point is not going to slaughter it. The point is not to show how inventive and creative we can be, but to, to notice how much we're already a part of. And that's sort of what I've been going through, which I think people find a little weird, you know, they all have the best job in the world, you're chasing all you get to go see all this shit. And I'm like, Yeah, I got to go chase it,
Andrew Vontz 14:09
but I never really saw it. You know. And when you think about climbing specifically, and I'd really like to loop back to what you mentioned about kind of the transient nature at times of brotherhood in these kinds of life and death contexts. But another reflection I had while I was preparing for this interview, was when you know, when you were in these times, truly life and death moments or where one small moment could have resulted in your death and constantly having death in your face, whether it was you know, freeze dried bodies, on mountains, body parts, whatever the case may be all the death of people around you that you saw it happen during the course of your career. Did that also give you the capacity to have focus and presence in a way that was not poor? possible and other domains of your life when you had to be that President to what you were doing physically with every breath and foots up?
Cory Richards 15:08
Yes, I, I think the proximity of death is a hijack to a more present. state of mind. Right, there's a laser focus. But again, I think there's so So the short answer to your question is yes. Like, being close to death reminded me in in a very not subtle way, that there's a there's a finitude to this and that, in that there's a requirement in those actions to be as perfect as possible, otherwise, the consequences the end of this incredible experience. So, so and especially in moments of heightened threat, or danger, there is absolutely a, an attention that verges on, you know, complete presence. But again, I wonder, and maybe this is too granular for people, I don't know, I wonder if it's more about that's more about flow, right. And it is about presence, I tend to think of presence as something much, much bigger than that. Whereas, you know, these things are very narrow, don't die, foot has to land exactly right hand has to go in the right place, you know, move under avalanche, like, that's a very narrow thing. I think presence is something so much broader. But yes,
Andrew Vontz 16:43
yeah, completely. And when you say hijack, I immediately think of amygdala hijack, and even hearing you describe that I'm thinking about tunnel vision, dilation of time, right? And just being stuck in that fight. Flight, fear, yeah, freeze response. And you're right, it is it is completely different. So when you think about, for example, the demesnes group, and this idea of, of witnessing or being present for what's happening with, with other people and just listening, what is the power of that? What is the power of, of just listening to people around you with whom you have an emotionally intimate relationship and being present to what they have to share?
Cory Richards 17:28
Hmm. Well, I mean, for anybody who's ever been in a relationship,
I think, we all know that listening is actually really hard. Because our primary driver, simply by living is to be acknowledged in some ways. And that's that, you know, when you look at, like, sort of the base level neurobiology, our need to belong, means that we survive. And part of belonging is often confused with being acknowledged not being acknowledged as part of that. But it's what I mean, I was sitting there the other night at men's group, we're sitting around the fire, and we're just talking and as I've stepped into a more CO facilitating, I'm not totally cooked, but more CO facilitating, I don't share as much in, in different groups. So my job in those groups has become to listen. And I found myself, you know, noticing frustration about not being able to talk but also noticing the Temperance that's required to be quiet. And I was thinking about exactly this, like, what do I gain from this? Well, I gain perspective, I can listen to the experience of other men, and I can connect or other people, not just men, because this extends far beyond that. That's why we do the work because it's not just about men. It's about everybody how we show up in the world. I can I get perspective, and it allows me to hold on to my, to my reactivity, and not bottle it, just hold on to it. And allow the experience of somebody else to land with me before I respond before Well, before I react. So what this does, what listening does is it fosters thoughtful response, versus impulsive reaction. And there's a huge, huge difference and most conversation in the world is reactive conversation. Because we're we're actually, and a lot of people don't like to hear this, then no, no, I'm responding. Well, responsiveness takes a little bit more time. It's more mindful. Right. And so the conversation that we have the conversation that we're It's hard to have the conversation that we see on TV and in movies, it's clicking back and forth, back and forth. So we're actually taught to do that. And on many different levels, responding is a much slower thing. Right? Doesn't mean you're talking slow. And you're talking like Rick Rubin, who I love, but, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's this, but it but that is emblematic of somebody who's probably more responding to the world. And so long, long answers short, listening has helped me learn what a response is versus a reaction. And when I respond, I can respond with more intention, I can actually incorporate what the person has said. And in doing so I can practice intentional, thoughtful empathy, which then becomes compassion as it moves out of me, right? So I can actually, if I take the time to listen, and this is something that I think is really confusing for people. I can then go, let me put myself and I do this consciously, let me put myself in a position that I can relate to that it's not going to be exactly the same. And see what that feels like. You know, somebody's talking about heartbreak. Okay, well, I can I know what that feels like. So I put myself in the closest situation I've experienced possible, and I engage with those motions that are coming up. Now, my response then, is an act of compassion. When I'm holding that space, even listen to them. It's an act of compassion, right? versus, you know, what we often think of as empathy is like, Oh, I'm so sensitive to people's emotions, I can't be around it. That's not empathy at all. That's actually, when I hear people go, I'm such an empath. I can't be around that. And that's something you hear all the time in LA, I'm like, okay, but it's not empathy. In fact, it's the opposite of empathy. That's just sensitivity. You know, that's not like I'm so empathetic. No, empathy is the is the engagement with somebody's uncomfortable or any emotion is being it's consciously being with them in it. And being willing to do that, whereas, oh, my god, I just sometimes it's too much. I'm too apathetic. That's actually more narcissistic, which is the irony.
Andrew Vontz 22:11
See what I mean? Yeah, no, I completely get it. And I'm thinking about how one of the most common ways when people meet each other for the first time, and I noticed this, you know, I live in rural Maine now, and I noticed this the most when I go back into city land, is the opening of almost all conversations within 30 seconds at some version of like, what do you do? Where do you work? Something like that? And, you know, this is perhaps perhaps easier for people who have had an extremely high level of achievement, or maybe it's not, but how do you think about who we are, when we're not those, those points of identification that are so pervasive in our culture? And what happens when we strip those identifiers away, like these ideas of, you know, I'm Cory, the guy who climbed Everest without oxygen, Cory, the National Geographic photographer, Cory, the author is we're going to talk about in part two, what happens when we take those things away? And is that an important thing to do?
Cory Richards 23:16
I think it's potentially. These are, by the way, these are great questions. These are really, really good, thoughtful questions. So many podcasts, you know, they just that mean, it's like playing the hits. And I love it. I love it when people come at me with thoughtful stuff, you know? i Yeah, it's the meat. So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm grateful because this feels like a really, really wonderful use of time. And time is so special. So
Andrew Vontz 23:53
cool to hear that. Yeah. It's
Cory Richards 23:59
our identifiers, again, are you know, like, they're, they're helpful. Because they give us a place sort of a sense of identity, they lock us into the world in meaningful ways. And they give other people a frame of reference. They're also limiting stories. Because we, and we need to do this, the brain needs to do this. We need to categorize things pretty quickly. And pretty simply because we're also trying to figure out, am I interested in this? Does this help me? You know, and those are that not from a manipulative standpoint, that's just the way our brain is functioning, like, where's my belonging? What is my safety level? Does this interest me is this part, you know, like, Is this part of my survival? That's just and that's okay. That's what we're doing. And it doesn't doesn't mean that we're using people or anything like that. It just, that's we're just quickly going through the world and cataloging information. So we use those identifiers in many ways to help us navigate our own use of time. Right, and keep ourselves safe. However, I think our culture because it is, I think a lot of this is related to is related to capitalism in some ways. Because it, it categorizes us in need pretty quickly, in some hierarchical index that tells us where we sit on that, that chain. I'm not attacking capitalism, I'm just making sort of a guess at one of the reasons why we do that. Right? Why or why we do. It's so, so much in our culture, I think, the power of taking those things away, which is very hard to do, like when we interact, we go into a conversation, it's really hard I try all the time, it'd be like to not ask, what do you do, I really try hard. And it's hard because you're just like, I don't know what to say. When we take that away, we get into sort of the the media or stuff of of our shared human experience. Because behind being in finance, or being an entertainment, or whatever it is, you being in retail, being a barista. What what is your, what is your human experience, that's where all the good stuff is, the reason we use those things is because it helps us it gives us a reference point to jump in, potentially, but it also creates a box in which we might never get out, you know, like, and so for me trying to get beyond that shit is so so important. And yet I understand its value. I think the value of getting beyond it is starting to see people more holy, more completely, without confining them to our immediate judgment calls that we that we create around what they say, you know, like, and we all do that we all do that we're supposed to do that. Like when we say I'm not a judgmental person. You don't know a lot about psychology or, or basic, you know, sociology or human survival. If you're saying you're, you're, we're all hugely judgmental people we're supposed to be. But I think once we realize that, and then we won't stop. So once we stop asking those questions, it's, we actually start to say, Oh, we might have totally different beliefs, but I want to know more. And I think that's really generative.
Andrew Vontz 27:28
When you first started being part of a men's group, what was your experience? Like in terms of knowing whether you could trust the people you were with to share the things that were on? Were on your mind? Or, or to be there for them in a trusting,
Cory Richards 27:44
respectful way? How I mean, like, how did I know it's okay to trust them? Yeah, I'm
Andrew Vontz 27:51
just thinking about people out there who might be listening to this, who might seek out something like that. And similar to what we just discussed around, you know, markers of identity or who people are, you know, there are certain contexts in which being really open and sharing who you are, could actually be really dangerous. And like there can be people who are predatory or who are manipulative. Go on Netflix, you can find, you have a number of documentaries about how this can go sideways. So I guess my question is, how can you enter into a healthy relationship with other people that are not just oriented around the deification of some guru or ideology or set of beliefs, versus mutual respect, sharing, understanding and cultivating meaningful intimacy?
Cory Richards 28:38
Well, first of all, I think you bring up something really interesting the deification of some guru, I tend to avoid cults of personality, and and people who are selling something. And there's a reason for that. And we can talk more about that. To your question, there isn't a clear answer, I want there to be. We all have pretty good compasses around whether or not something is safe or dangerous, most of us now part of this is that we don't just jump into this group where we're all of a sudden just sharing openly about the stuff that's going on in our relationships. We've all interacted before, and that comes through sort of, I don't want to call it a vetting process because that's not right. But there's more. There's there's sort of the official work that we're doing around the fire every other Monday, or every Monday in my case, and then there's the non official work, which is every other Sunday, we gather up at this Kenny's house, we go in the sauna, we go in the ice bath, it's just Guys, and this is sort of our casual conversation time. And and those settings were were allowed, you know, are not allowed, but other people who aren't participating in the groups come, and everybody starts to get a feel for one another. And there have been guys that have come and and we're like, you know, there's no vote, it's just clear. We're like, Yeah, they're not quite, they're not they're not this group, right? That doesn't mean they're not going to fit right in another group. And it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be a part of a group. It's just like, yeah, they just don't quite feel right. So then there's, you know, you have this basic structure there, which is, again, part of our, our social, hard wiring to figure out who sort of fits in this this club, right? It's also we don't want to be exclusive, but they're just going to be more better personality fits. And then what we've noticed is, there are people who go in, all out right from the beginning, which is not always healthy. And there are people who are holdouts, and over time, and you can pretty much identify at at the beginning of any of these groups. You can be like, That's a holdout. That's a holdout. That might be an overshare. That's me. I'm an overshare. Or I have been in the past. And what happens is, there's this temperance that could that through time starts to everybody starts to even out a little bit, and what the big moment is when the holdout or the holdouts finally break, and when they do that, the entire the cohesion of the group tightens everybody comes together tighter. And those are the people those are the holdouts, the hard nuts are the ones that tend to have them there. They're, you know, they're more guarded. And they're, they're actually the barometer of how safe it is. Because once they're feeling safe than everybody else, that they're the most astute. They might be the most guarded, but they're also paying attention to the safety. So they're actually a really, really good barometer of how safe a group is. Got it. You made you hope that made sense? Yeah, no, that
Andrew Vontz 32:14
completely makes sense. I wanted to go back to something you said earlier, because it was almost like a throwaway comment. But I think it's really important to dig in a bit. So you, you talked briefly about how, you know, fame, power, wealth are things that most people think about is things that will bring them happiness, fulfillment, joy, it'll, you know, it's like a cheat code, it's going to unlock everything. For the vast the vast majority of people, you know, they're never going to experience the level of fame, success and power that you have, or success as an artist or an athlete. So could you perhaps speak more about what, uh, you know, what you did not get out of those things, that people might think they will get out of those things if they achieve them?
Cory Richards 33:04
Well, this is a point and, again, talk about it more when we talk about the book, but I want to make it very clear that we live in a world right now, where we categorize people by privilege. And, and oftentimes that extends into race and gender, sexual orientation. And that conversation has generated a lot of good discussion. Well, one of the things that I'm very, very clear on, and that I, that I, that I want to say loudly and calmly, is privilege and wellness are not synonymous. Just because you have money. And just because you have power. And just because you have fame, or whatever it happens to be, that does not mean you are happy, healthy, or internally well. And so when we when we say Well, that's easy for you to say, guy with money, or white guy or whatever, what we're doing is we're categorically rejecting their actual emotional experience, that's a really, really important thing to remember. privilege, and, and health and wellness, not synonymous whatsoever. It's not to what privilege allows you as access to things and that's a big deal, that you shouldn't downplay it, but that's what privilege really does is allows you access to things or it safeguards you from other things that, you know, you just don't get impacted by so it sort of keeps you safe from certain traumas. But what I've learned is that like, I've been probably the happiest, it's been they've been some hard years, but I've been the happiest and my life has been the most generative In the past three years, since I stopped taking photos, I stopped climbing, I stopped being in front of the camera, I stopped, I just stopped, I stopped, because I realized that all of this was actually driving me further away from myself, it was creating a, you know, a more more identifiers, more and more and more things that I could lean into, or run to, when the discomfort of my own internal experience was too great. When I couldn't tolerate my emotions, which was true for about 39 years. I couldn't tolerate the emotions that I was feeling so and the more I had, you know, the more money I had, the more notoriety I had, well, I could just distract myself from those intolerable emotions. When the intolerable emotions were the roadmap all along, they're pointing me to actual happiness, you know, or actual joy, let's not say happiness. They're pointing me toward their debt, or the roadmap or the information on how to get to contentment. So when you have all this extraneous shit, fame, wealth, power, whatever, you just lean into it, to avoid the actual work that you need to do. And your internal clock is just screaming like, but you're just like, well, I'll throw, I'll just go on another trip, you know, or I'll just lean into my notoriety, or I'll just, and it all happens, I mean, truly, very subconsciously. Now, again, this is one of those things that this is a bit of a spoiler for later on. But you know, it's like, well, the summit doesn't matter. I'll say it differently. Because we'll say that for the book. There are a million business people who have made huge businesses will go, I can tell you right now, that the box at the top of the ladder is empty. But I can also tell you that you're going to climb the ladder to try to look into the box. There's nothing there. Right. So by all means, climb the ladder, look into the box, and understand for yourself that it's not empty, don't take my advice. And when you get there, you'll remember this. And if you're wise enough, you will either say there's two options after that. Well, now I'm going to climb the ladder because I like climbing the ladder. Or I don't need to climb the ladder at all. You know, and those are two different pathways. Not one is not right or wrong. But everybody who's done it knows the box is empty. But everybody still needs to climb the ladder to look into the box. Alright,
Andrew Vontz 37:43
let's stop. This is fucking awesome, man. Thank you so much. Let's do you mind like let's just like walk away for like two minutes and come back and we'll do part two. Great. Sounds great. All right.