Heather Jackson: Gravel & Ultra Trail Running Pro - Positive Risks, Growth & the Power of Starting Something New
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Heather Jackson has won six full Ironman triathlons, 16 Ironman 70.3 races, the Escape from Alcatraz triathlon and she also won the Wildflower triathlon four times. She played D1 hockey at Princeton where she was a two-time captain and was on the US National team for cycling track racing. In 2023, she left triathlon to be a pro gravel racer AND a pro ultra trail runner. In her first season she won the Belgian Waffle Ride San Diego and the Javelina 100 foot race.
I mean, damn.
Image credit: Howie Stern Photo
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Heather has an awesome YouTube channel and if you’re a fan, you know she has done a lot of media and podcast appearances. In this interview, we get into new material and talk about Heather’s mind game, why she continues to take positive risks and try new things and much more.
Find Heather on YouTube and Instagram @hjacksonracing, find those links below. A big thank you to Michael Marckx and Heather’s husband Wattie for helping make this interview happen and to Heather for everything she graciously shares in this conversation.
Choose the Hard Way is a podcast about how doing hard things is fun. Please help more people find this podcast. To do that, just hit subscribe and rate the show five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this episode with someone you care about.
We are in year six of Choose the Hard Way and it’s going to be a big one with some amazing guests and the chance for us to spend some time together as a community at a few gatherings and live events.
To make it all happen I’m open to mission-aligned sponsors I’d be proud to share with my audience directly supporting the show this season. If you or someone you know have a company that wants to reach the high-achieving, high-influence, highly networked people who listen to this show and do amazing things, then send a DM to @hardwaypod or email us at choosethehardway@gmail.com.
I’m also ready to retire the Giant TCX cyclocross bike I’ve been using to race gravel since 2015 and I’m ready for a new ride. If you’re in the industry and work for a company that makes an amazing bike you’d like me to race and talk about this year, holler at me and let’s make it happen.
Finally, I’m going to have big news to share some time in the next few episodes about the business I started that I’ve quietly been working on for the past 18 months. We are getting ready to publicly release our product and I want to give you all the opportunity to be among the first to get to try it.
Go to choosethehardway.com to sign up for the newsletter and if there’s someone you think would make a great guest, DM @hardwaypod.
Choose The Hard Way is a Big Truck Production. Anthony Palmer at Palm Tree Pod Co is the producer and editor and Emily Miles is head of digital and marketing. Jeffrey Nebolini is the world-renowned designer behind our brand identity and the Choose the Hard Way logo. The content for this show is created by @vontz.
Heather Jackson Website | Instagram | YouTube
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Andrew Vontz 0:01
All right. Hold on. I gotta move. Give me two seconds. Oh, wait, that's good
Perfect. All right. Okay. Right. You probably don't know this about me, but I actually live in Midcoast, Maine, so I don't live that far from where you grew up.
Heather Jackson 0:29
I saw that in the email you sent out. I was. So did yeah. Do you just live in Maine or your Amina?
Andrew Vontz 0:36
My, my wife. My wife was born here. I was dragged back here. Okay, got it? Yeah. Yeah, it's it's nice. I mean, I lived in California, I lived in the Bay Area for quite a while. And I lived in LA for quite a while before that. And I'd love I'd love both of those places. And for this time of our life, and like for the family, this is really great place to be.
Heather Jackson 1:03
Totally, totally. Yeah, it's hard to go from those to that.
Andrew Vontz 1:07
I mean, yeah, especially a group ride here is like three people. And it's, you know, like, 10 times a year. So that's right. Yeah, and I mean, as you might gather from the focus of, of my podcasts, and the guests I have on and what I've done professionally, I really, really like cycling. So it's a little rough. Right? Yeah. It's okay, though. You know, that's okay. That's, I mean, that's a I've gotten, I'd really never touch Zwift before I moved here, and now I'm like, so deep.
Heather Jackson 1:44
Oh, yeah, totally.
Andrew Vontz 1:47
Yeah. Yeah, I've that's, I mean, that's actually one of the things I'm curious about, with just like the pro triathlon lifestyle, which I know is not your focus anymore. But it just seems like most pro pro triathletes over time, actually turned into hamsters. And like they, right they've I mean, did you ever have like the full on, like, all indoor training thing, even though you were in locations where you can train outside?
Heather Jackson 2:18
Oh, yeah, I still have it. You do?
Andrew Vontz 2:22
Like you go get your little fish tank and wiggling around. Exactly.
Heather Jackson 2:24
Yeah. I mean, it's so efficient is the thing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Here's the workout. Just warm up and then hit it. And then yeah, no hiding. There's no that your numbers are right there. Yeah. No. Sign made effort.
Andrew Vontz 2:43
Right. Yeah, that's correct. It is.
Heather Jackson 2:47
It is addicting. I go through phases of it. Like I we just got down to Tucson. So we split time between Bend Oregon and Tucson and yeah. Yeah, every winter I kind of lock in and bend and just know it's like, okay, eight to 10 weeks just on the kicker every day, basically.
Andrew Vontz 3:07
Yeah, that just sounds like such a short winner to me.
Heather Jackson 3:13
Let me complain about my two months.
Andrew Vontz 3:16
That's rather so glad before we kind of dive in I obviously I gave you the the overview that I sent you. Thank you for actually reading it. That's nice. Not everyone does that. Yeah, just if you know if there's anything that you're like, hey, I don't I definitely like don't want to talk about topic X. As you know, I'm not here to do like a gotcha podcasts obviously. But if there's anything you just don't want to talk about. You can tell me now or if something comes up that's fine too. But the one thing that would be great if we don't do is if there is something you know, you don't want to talk about. It is generally better to tell me now like I had a guest come on and then at the end of the podcast, he was like I did this whole spiel and then at the end he was like, Hey man, can you take out like that 15 minutes because I didn't tell you this but actually I'm going through a divorce and like I can't talk about X y&z which was totally fine. And I took it out it just like would have been better to know when we started. Yeah, but you got anything. Yeah. Anything up your sleeve?
Heather Jackson 4:24
No, I can't think of anything.
Andrew Vontz 4:27
That's cool. All right. Great. And I've you know, I've done I've done quite a bit of quite a bit of research, I did learn a couple of things I didn't know about you, which I didn't think was gonna happen, which was cool. But But now Now like now I feel like I'm making a kind of awkward like something like real official is about to start, which is not the case. We're just gonna like have a conversation for about an hour and then then we'll be done. And also, I'm really grateful that you took time to do this. I know Obviously, you're extremely busy. And I really wanted to have you specifically on the show. I'm not doing that many episodes this year because I just launched my own startup. And that's where I'm spending most of my time. But you are one of the people I really wanted to have on because I think my perception at least says that you're actually a very interesting human in addition to being great at a sport and that's not always the case.
Heather Jackson 5:31
The Sleep thing?
Andrew Vontz 5:32
What's that? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah,
Heather Jackson 5:35
yeah. Gone. And then it was like, only beta version or? Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 5:39
it's a, I've been working on it for about 18 months. My partner I started with is also a former Strava executive. And, you know, it's really wild, how many people who really care about their health and wellness. And our active people just really struggle to navigate through information and like, they're using wearables, but it doesn't really change anything for them. So that's kind of how we ended up doing what we're doing. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah. But I bet you, I bet you know how important sleep is. Oh, yeah.
Heather Jackson 6:16
Yes, I am a princess. So you can talk to my husband? It is bad. Like, yeah, it's like nine to 10 hours a night or I'm not happy.
Andrew Vontz 6:29
Yeah, it's, I mean, if you can get nine to 10 hours, it's remarkable. What a big difference it makes for everything.
Heather Jackson 6:35
Totally. Exactly.
Andrew Vontz 6:39
You know, I was listening, one of the things I did I listened to your episode of that triathlon life. I love that podcast, and I loved your episode, you talked about, you talked about some of the workouts that you've done specifically for trail running, and you talked about going out and running downhill on pavement on what sounded like a really horrible grade. And as you were describing that I just was, you know, high performance and longevity are, are definitely not the same thing. But when you're doing something like that, how do you think about that within the context of just you and your body over the span of your life? Because that didn't sound like a great thing to do yourself?
Heather Jackson 7:21
No, honestly. I mean, I just got into the troll running last year. Yeah, I've been doing it a little over a year. But every time I do one, I'm just they end and I'm like, this cannot be good for the body. Definitely, I mean, I think, yeah, there's certain things in training like that running downhill just to kind of work on the muscles and that muscle fatigue and muscle, I guess. Yeah, pounding that I don't have from running the roads for so long. That can help. But yeah, I think there's
certainly a side to it. That's probably not the best for the body. Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 8:03
And so what does that feel like relative to other things that you've done mentally and physically?
Heather Jackson 8:13
The downhill running? Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 8:15
the downhill running the training you have to do for trail running, and you know what you're getting out of the events themselves?
Heather Jackson 8:21
Yeah, the downhill running and kind of the new things to me. I mean, I've been running a long time now, on the triathlon side. It's very, it's pretty calculated like you hit your paces, you're running pretty much flat, maybe some undulating roads, but it's, you're going into these races, like, Okay, this is the pace I want to hit. And the trail running is completely different. Because you can't say, Okay, I'm gonna go for a run and hit you know, let's do eight by one mile, six, six minute miles, like you're running up 15% grades, you're running in the mountains, you have rocky terrain like, and so for me, it's been being able to let go of like, just the calculated pace and, and all of the those things that you watch in triathlon to like, okay, it's a lot by perceived effort a lot by like, Okay, are you How hard are you pushing? Is this can you push harder? Are you pushing too hard? You're getting up this mountain. And then on the downs, it's same thing, like, the technical side of things, which is new to me. That's, um, I think is my my biggest weakness right now is just navigating technical terrain in managing that leg fatigue that comes with that downhill, like eccentric loading on the quads, mainly.
Andrew Vontz 9:39
Yeah, and I mean, for anybody who's listening, they've probably experienced what happens like when you go out and you run downhill, you'd feel way more sore than you typically do if you're just running on flat ground. And eccentric loading is the thing like in weightlifting that actually makes you the most sore and it's super horrible. It takes a long time to recover. From so the idea of like, going out and doing that to yourself on purpose just to prepare for the event, I guess makes sense. Do you find it actually helps once you get to competition? Well,
Heather Jackson 10:11
honestly that it's been like an experiment on myself this year just because I'm like, Well, this is after the first two I did last year, early last year I was. It was crazy. And in, meaning the pain and the soreness following the race, it was probably two or three weeks, I had to take off from running. Fortunately, I was still cycling. So I could, that helped a lot with recovery. And I was kind of turned my focus over to the gravel side in the moment. But now I'm finding that I do think it's helping, I think it is just like a long term investment of the more you do it, the more seasoned your muscles get. But early on, it was like, Well, this is what caused the pain in the race. I guess if I just go out and do it in my training, maybe it'll I'll get to the next race a little more prepared. Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 10:58
And I guess based on the mindset you had going into the season last year, how the season went? How did you think about what you actually want to do this year? And was there anything? You were like, Yeah, I definitely don't want to do this thing. And I wanted to do more of this thing.
Heather Jackson 11:18
Um, it was definitely last year was just kind of, um, I was coming off my final Kona, the October prior, I knew I wanted to try these two new things. Ultra running and gravel cycling a little more seriously. I've done a couple events, mostly in the grovel side. But it was like, Okay, I want to give this a go. Both of them are just exploding right now. And competition level. And just yeah, those two sports are just going off. And I was like, this is cool. I love following them. I want to be a part of this. And so it was almost Yeah, I kind of just had more of a relaxed, not relaxed season, because I was training as hard as I could, it was more like, okay, let's give this a go. And these are the main events, these I was in the lifetime Grand Prix. And then these are the big trail races I wanted to hit. We made it to both Western states and UTMB last year, which are the two kind of biggest right now. And it was just a really cool year of learning and kind of dipping my toe in and I think I walked away like with so many things of like, oh my God, I've only done this different. This one is different. This one. I could have been more prepared in this in this way or and so I came into this year almost. My schedule is pretty similar. Just having that kind of personality of like, okay, I did this I did these last year, I want to improve, I want to show up and do better than I did last year and see maybe some progress. So I'm coming in this year with kind of that mindset. I've def to your question. I'm definitely focused back on unbound again and Western states both in June. Those are kind of two races that yeah, I really want to show up ready for and see if I can can have better days at Western States. Last year, I had a tough fall about mile 40 ish and rolled an ankle pulled a hamstring and didn't make it to the track in Auburn. So that one is I need to make it to that track. 100 miles later and unbound. I've had a couple of mechanical issues the last two years. So that one I think, if I can be Yeah, just get through that one unscathed. I think that that sort of race suits me that that length that long of a day, the distance the type of writing. So I'm certainly preparing throughout the spring with other events. But those are the two I'm focused on right now.
Andrew Vontz 13:51
And because it sounds like you're someone who really takes that specificity of training approach for specific events. So for unbound Have you been getting out and running in like mid Shin deep mud this winter? That weighs like 50 pounds because I've done it, I've done it before myself. What's like, what's it like for you? Have you been preparing for that?
Heather Jackson 14:15
Exactly. That's what that's the training. We're gonna hit. We're gonna hit mid south and three weeks as well. Like, hopefully, it'll be a super muddy, muddy day, get that practice day and as well carrying the 100 pounds. Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 14:28
absolutely great. Clay based mud down there. It's right. Exactly. Yeah, the red mud. No, that's fantastic. So I mean, you've done a lot of different sports at an extremely high level. I definitely want to talk a little bit about hockey. But, you know, when you made this pivot into gravel and into Ultra running, I feel like when people are doing new things, they can go one of two ways One, because they don't really know what their limits are. In a new discipline, they don't I mean, you probably, I'm sure like, you know who the players are in like who the real hitters are, when you go out there, and you hadn't raced against all those peoples, you don't have that kind of internal compass of like, oh, when this person is doing that, that means this for me. So for you, did you kind of feel like blank slate? I feel like this is gonna go pretty well, or were you more in the camp of I'm kind of anxious? Because I do know a little bit about these people. And this is new.
Heather Jackson 15:30
Yeah, it's so that's so true. And that like, you're new, you have no idea. And it was almost like, almost better. Because yeah, you have no expectations, you don't really know. More. So for me on the trail running side, no, have any idea what you're doing. I just like every race, I just would go out and just. And I didn't know. Yeah, a lot of the I knew, like you're saying some of the people I've followed in the sport are followed at some of those bigger races. But other than that, yeah, it was a blank slate. And same on the gravel racing side. And you see kind of some of the bigger names but not really like how they ride or who's known to say attack or ride a certain way. And so it was definitely just a learning experience every single race last year. And that's why I'm excited coming into this year. It's like, I feel like I have a better idea on some of those things. And know that coming in and can hopefully Yeah, improve on with that knowledge improve this year.
Andrew Vontz 16:32
And for amateurs who are going out and doing these events, it often has this existential component of expanding their sense of what's possible for themselves who they are, what they can do. For you, as someone who's been an extremely high level athlete for most of your life, are you still learning things about yourself when you go out and do events like Western states and unbound? Oh,
Heather Jackson 16:56
completely, I mean, that's partly why I made this switch over. I mean, I had been doing triathlon for so long, or it felt it was starting to just feel like I was kind of on on repeat and doing kind of the same game same races just kind of showing up and I didn't really have that, I guess, passion anymore or excitement for it, because I had done it so many times. Here we go again, same thing, same routine, same try to hit the same paces for the same amount of time at the same courses. And for me now. It's like I'm, I feel, yeah, like a brand new student just starting all over again, in every single event. Like anything can happen. I still don't know what I'm doing with the two sports like, as someone just yeah, a year under my belt, like you certainly learned a lot, but I'm not this experienced 20 year bike racer. Yeah, in the same position that I was on the triathlon side. So for me, it's just, yeah, what can I do? I mean, I have competed as an athlete at a high level for a long time, but not in these two sports. And I stand on the Start lines, feeling like a complete beginner. Like looking around me at all the superstars that I've followed, and it's one of those things where you stand there and you're like, Okay, you have to convince yourself like, you're okay to be here, you're okay to be on the start line next to these other women and, and see what you can do. And it's, that's what's exciting, because there's no expectations, there's not a lot of history of like, okay, I did this year, last year, or 10 years ago, like how triathlon was getting, it's anything could happen, and I want to see what I can do.
Andrew Vontz 18:36
Yeah, and when I think about something like specifically like race day, so with triathlon again, you had so many reps of exactly what that process is, like, probably knowing where everything in your gear bag is what's going on in the transition zones. Now that you're doing these professional graveline Ultra running events, they're professional and it's quite different. You know, you you have to have your partner or your team get out there and find those feed zones or neutral zones. You don't always know what's going to happen if somebody gets lost. You know, you're in different host housing or Airbnbs in different towns. Would you mind just like could you like, take me through, like the morning of unbound or the morning of western states? Like minute by minute, like, What time are you getting up? And what happens and like, what's your level of nervousness or arousal or not? Are you totally calm?
Heather Jackson 19:31
Oh, no. Yeah, that's a good one. Um, well, let's say hypothetically, they both start at six. I think they're both somewhere around there, but 6am I would probably set my alarm for four, I would think 4am Maybe 345. I get out I wake up my husband brings me coffee. He spoils me every single morning so drink coffee for about 1520 minutes get up. Get my kit on or my my running clothes make breakfast I usually have either two pieces of sourdough toast with peanut butter and banana or maybe oatmeal. If I feel I need something a little bit heavier maybe for like an unbound also, not running it Unbound, you can have a little bit more fiber. So oatmeal is okay. So that would be about Yeah, 430 ish. E till Yeah, 420 to 445 ish. I usually I have everything ready the night before. So I'm not in the morning like fiddling with anything, it's more just everything is literally laid out or in the van already to drive to the start for say and Unbound, my husband will drive over with kind of the packs all this stuff ready for the aid stations and my warm up will be the ride over to the start line. So if it's a six exam start, I'll probably leave the Airbnb around like five ish. A start, I found it very, very quickly, I found out that it was important for me to get a good warm up in with these because from the gun, they're just like, hard effort. So to get my heart rate up earlier, it's almost like the swim start of the tries like so probably leave the house, five 510 Get a 20 minute warm up in 510 to 530 ish, and then try to be on that start line. It depends on some of these races. Some of them I found like they don't call up certain fields. So you have to line up to get your starting spot kind of near the front routes your 300 people back. So depending on that Unbound, we were able to start near the front. So you could kind of roll to the start line a little bit later. So maybe an extended warmup there, but get to the start line like 545 45 ish. And then, yeah, 15 minutes of waiting.
Andrew Vontz 21:58
And then it's and then it's a lot of fun. So I mean, as you mentioned, you and your husband or your team, you work extremely closely together, like both on the business and marketing side, as well as when it's race day getting out there and doing the event. Would you mind talking a little bit about, you know, just being in a relationship being married can be really challenging for almost everyone. So when you bring the all of those professional elements into it, what kind of pressure does that put on your relationship? And how does it like also make it stronger? Yeah, I
Heather Jackson 22:30
mean, I mean, it's definitely it's made it stronger, because we've literally been able to live this life together, sharing, sharing things we love to do and making making it work as like a living a career together for the last 15 years. And it's been, yeah, I feel so grateful and so fortunate to have been able to live this journey. I mean, I met Lottie, my husband was just out of school. I was 23. So I've been with him since then. And he's guided my entire career in terms of yeah, just like he comes from a professional cycling background as well. So he has the riding side he he taught me so much on the biking side as well as just overall like training and racing tactics, but early on just guiding Okay, let's not step up to the full distance in triathlon yet like you're so young, let's focus on the half distance right now. Like, let's, he does all my sponsor stuff, all my marketing, just something that as a 23 year old, I would have had no idea and even later on 2830 Like through my career being a step ahead on that marketing side and working with sponsors and and yeah, making making this journey possible because we have partners that yeah, he's helped guide of like, okay, they want to invest in you and help you out. How are you going to help them out? And it's always that two way street working with sponsors. And yeah, he's been he's guided that whole thing. So I am where I am because of Wadi on the on the flip side, it can be Yeah, I would say that I guess the tougher side is just that marketing business side of things where he he's so good at marketing we do we have a YouTube channel. Just everyday social media, those things he's filming me every day. Or, yeah, just following me around with a camera or always, always be marketing. So that's probably the only thing that we really like, he can tell pretty quickly if on a certain day, I'm just like, I look at him, like, get that camera out of my like. Not today. That's probably the only side of things where but I mean, we're we're able to provide that kind of glimpse into his journey and, and and bring people along and People have have enjoyed that. And we've gotten some great feedback of just seeing that. Yeah, I guess close and personal look into, into what we do. And so I understand the importance of it. But some days, it's just not. Yeah, not awesome.
Andrew Vontz 25:17
Yeah, I get that having a camera in your face all the time and, and kind of having to be on has to be, has to be challenging. It's not, you know, it's not something that we all necessarily wanted to do all the time. And it's it's part of life now. Right?
Heather Jackson 25:30
Totally. Totally. Yeah. And
Andrew Vontz 25:33
I mean, in in with that, I mean, part of what the storytelling that you do, in addition to being an extremely high level athlete does storytelling is part of how you deliver value to sponsors and, and bring people into your world and what you're doing. Do you see it as an instrument to, to help you influence people and other ways beyond delivering value to your sponsors, and being able to have the career you have?
Heather Jackson 26:01
I think so for sure, I think I mean, it obviously delivers value for sponsors. But I think more that I get out of it, or just the messages I receive or chatting with people at races who follow the most of the YouTube channels has been the big one where we meet so many people at races, they're like, we watch your YouTube, like, I had it on the trainer, I was gonna skip my workout today, but I had your video up and I just yeah, it made me do my workout, or it made me not skip my run, or it got me out the door on the day and to have the I'm not doing it. Like with that in mind. But that that is is a effective, it is just, it's amazing. It it makes me feel like on the days that I don't want to record or, you know, be into that. It's like, okay, you know what, I've we've received so much good feedback that it is like maybe inspiring people it is helping people get out the door when they don't want to or on an off day like that, that for me is is the motivation behind it. For sure. Especially on on Yeah, tough days, it's like that's to be able to maybe take it beyond my racing at some point, wherever that might end, to then also continue with, like inspiring people to go after things that they want to do or just motivating them day to day of getting out the door and living a healthy, healthy life. I think that's definitely a longer term thought as well, for me with some of this stuff.
Andrew Vontz 27:31
Is there a framework for the kind of storytelling that you'd like to do? Like, is there a kind that you enjoy the most or that you find to be most effective?
Heather Jackson 27:42
To be honest, that we're literally playing around with that on with our different like, we've kind of taken a bunch of different approaches. Watty is super, super creative. He loves kind of the bigger overarching kind of movie like pieces that tell tell a longer story. We found a lot of people just like the straight up vlogs where he's literally following me around in the kitchen and then out onto the trainer in the garage. And I'm like puking doing intervals. Like, it's crazy. The differences of Yeah, and then we have the full full pieces around a certain race and how races go. So we're trying to dial in right now of Yeah, things that things that we like, I think the mixture has been good, like, you never know it, almost like you never know what you're gonna get with with each one. But it's interesting, I think as long as we're just kind of giving a glimpse on the day on the training or where we're at in the season or leading into a certain race, it's, it's mostly just about being Yeah, just showing it authentically and being like this, what we're doing.
Andrew Vontz 28:51
Yeah, completely. And you mentioned briefly the idea of, of, you know, like what's on the other side of your career as a professional athlete. And again, it seems like, at this point, like the vast majority of your life has been completely dedicated to extremely high level or professional sports, right. Yeah. So when you just think of yourself as like, you have either the professional athlete but you whether the human being what is whether the human being want to get out of her time on planet Earth. Yeah,
Heather Jackson 29:23
totally. I mean, it's definitely something I've been like, working on the last Yeah, a couple of years of like, okay, well, I'm still racing at a at a high level and I want to race the best I can at a high level for as long as I can. But I know there is a end point where I won't be at that point, the end and what would I want to be doing with my days and the ability to still be able to be outdoors to be active to do these epic adventures in some sort of capacity, whether that's helping other people reach their goals, where I can use them knowledge I learned I've learned at these events, these different sports and and help them get there. I think working with kids at some point kind of inspires me. I remember when I was 1012. Like, at that time I was soccer, ice hockey. But like I remember going to a soccer camp and Mia Hamm was there. And some of the US National Team players and to me it was this like, not comparing myself to Mia Hamm at all, I'm just using that as an example. But like, inspiring girls to or Yeah, females or whoever inspiring whoever to want to, like focus in on something that I absolutely love. Like I played soccer every day after school for hours and hours. All I cared about and because show okay, this, you put that dedication, and this is this could be your life. And to Yeah, I guess have that kind of aspect at some point would be I think something I would love to do for sure.
Andrew Vontz 30:56
And when you were a kid, what got you into sport and into soccer? Was that something that your family was really into? Or did you just encounter it and, like had a knack for it and really talk to it?
Heather Jackson 31:08
My son, my mom was a phys ed teacher. And so she had us in every single sport, I think largely just as like a childcare outlet of like, Nope, you're, we have a basketball game this afternoon. You're going to be in it, basically. I mean, we were on all teams. I also have three siblings. So there were four of us. And so I think it was just a matter of Yeah, like, every wish there was so much energy. So much like competitiveness in the family, just of the kids like we had our own. I mean, every day after school if there wasn't kind of a school league event it was we were in the street playing street hockey like to, to on to just the four of us, are we there were some neighborhood kids as well. So I mean, we were always outside, always competing always. Yeah, and my so my parents had us in different my sister was a gymnast, my brother was ice hockey. I was mainly soccer and then got jealous. And my brother playing ice hockey got into ice hockey. So I attribute everything Yeah, to my parents sacrificing that and getting putting us on those teams and bringing us to all the practices. And I mean, it was I can't imagine when I think back on their schedule one, my dad driving my sister to gymnastics, my mom bringing me my brothers to sock to ice hockey then to soccer, like it was just what what they did was yeah, I'm so grateful to them.
Andrew Vontz 32:32
So three siblings, I've got to ask, what's your birth order? Where are you in the family?
Heather Jackson 32:37
I have a brother one or I guess he's a little over one, two, maybe two years older. I'm next than my brother. My other brother is one year after me. And then my sister's one year after him. So it literally was 1234 like on leashes.
Andrew Vontz 32:59
Yeah, that's a lot. So you're we can say your middle ish. You're a middle ish child. Yeah, yep. Yeah. Okay, that's cool. So there was a lot of sibling rivalry in a very positive way. It sounds like Yeah,
Heather Jackson 33:13
mostly positive. I
Andrew Vontz 33:16
bet it got a bit violent at times. So I've got two brothers. I know how it goes directly.
Heather Jackson 33:20
I can say I was the most competitive. So I was like, Yeah. I had to beat them all every time. over everything.
Andrew Vontz 33:30
So. So with that as a competitor, did you did you feel like whatever you were doing, whether it was sports or something at school? Did you were you were someone who like always had to win? Or did it show up in a fun and friendly way?
Heather Jackson 33:46
No, it was bad. I was I had to win. And I would get very upset or angry if I didn't so very competitive in the sports I was doing and then also just with myself like schoolwork, like had to be the best had to be the best student had to Yeah, have the best grades and yeah, it was very intense, probably. Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 34:10
And so over the course of your athletic career, have you found ways to manage that and turn it off when it's not useful? And if so, like, what are those things that that you do to down regulate or relax and kind of shut this stuff off?
Heather Jackson 34:25
Yeah, I would say it's, it's tamed down a bit where I don't get, like, I think I have a wider view now. And it's like, okay, you don't want a raise. It's not the end of the world. I think early on, though, even in my 20s when I just met water and I was getting into triathlon, over the team sports I would get, I wouldn't hit a workout on a certain day and I would be in tears like mad at myself and angry. So I think just probably partly with age, partly with just maturity in sport and knowing okay, it's sport. It is. We're choosing to do this. It's not the end of that. We're all they're much bigger kind of world problems out there for sure. So I think I'm a little bit calmer with it, I do to your question. Like to kind of step away on, say, my recovery days, or even once the training is done on the day, like I do my training, and then whether it's yoga or take a lot of Epsom salt baths or just stepping away. So your mind isn't always on that goal that you're going after that athletic thing of like, okay, I did the training today, tomorrow, I have this and it's like this nonstop amped up, kind of, yeah, lifestyle where you do need to kind of step away and relax, or read a lot of books just so not thinking about, Okay, tomorrow, I have, you know, this run to do or ride or so I think that is important, just to kind of shut things off. Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 35:55
what do you what do you like to read?
Heather Jackson 35:59
I'm not a good it's a lot of just like crime. Oh, yeah. Read. Nothing. Like, it's tough because I have all these intentions of like, I do like a lot of autobiographies on, like athletes, or just a nonfiction kind of, yeah, historical pieces. But you finish training, and you sit down to try to read one of those. And your mind is just, I'm so tired. It's so hard. But like, just yeah, like a basic kind of quickie crime novel. It's, you can work your way through. So that's the given take. Don't have any, like, good high end. No,
Andrew Vontz 36:39
I mean, it's not like there's a better kind of book to read. I think like, whatever people read, it's great. I actually, I probably have, this might sound kind of weird. I have like, 10 books underneath my bed. I just, I'm just like, what, you know, like, we're just like you said, like, where's my brain at this moment? How much gas is in the tank? And like, which book will serve me in this moment? And it really, it really runs the gamut? I'd probably be embarrassed to say, some of those books. But whatever. Like sometimes, just like, I've gotten nothing left. I need that one. Right.
Heather Jackson 37:15
I love that. Yeah, that's how I am actually usually I have a stack of books somewhere in the bath or you're near the bed for sure.
Andrew Vontz 37:22
Yeah. So it's, it's kind of just to jump back from an to soccer and hockey. So as you progress through your athletic career, and I'm thinking about this in relation to whether the total killer or hyper competitor, as you kind of like start shifting between these different sports. Because hockey, you were playing at a high enough level that like dealing Olympics, were potentially in the cards, and then you've shifted into triathlon, didn't track cycling, then triathlon again, as you had those different transitions? What did it feel like at those moments when you shifted to something else? Did it feel intentional and positive? Or did you feel like you hadn't gotten to where you wanted to go? For example, with hockey?
Heather Jackson 38:04
Yeah, that's a good question. Because I think I think every time I've transitioned to a new a new venture, it's always been positive. In terms of the second I get going with it, like, I remember. Yeah, when I first got into triathlon, I was hooked immediately. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is so cool. It was so new and different. But every single time the transition has been with the previous for very kind of, yeah, top of my mind of like, things I didn't accomplish. So I've always, I think, kind of used that as motivation in the next one, if that makes sense. Because, yeah, in 2000, I was trying for the 2006 Winter Olympic Games, in Torino, for ice hockey, and I didn't make the cut for the team. And that also coincided with my senior year of college. So for women at the time in Oh, 607 there really wasn't anything after that. So it wasn't like I could go play in the NHL, it was just college hockey was done. I think there were a couple of minor league teams, but not really there are more now for sure. But it was kind of like what now, I didn't make the Olympics. That's all I've been doing. It's all I know, with my life. And I was at home in New Hampshire and my parents were going to a local try up at Cannon mountain. And they were like, come with us. Like I had a mountain bike I had from growing up and did the triathlon on that at Canyon mountain, New Hampshire and was hooked. I was just like, the first time I raced myself, not a team sport. And so I feel lucky that yeah, I went with them to that because it made me all of a sudden that kind of all in extreme mindset shifted from hockey and I didn't make the Olympics to Whoo, okay, I'm gonna do this what's the biggest event like, okay, Kona, this Ironman World Championships like this is I was all in from like day one. And then all through triathlon, I would use kind of things I learned in hockey or just kind of that disappointment, I think I would think back on it randomly, like you didn't. If you do this now like that, like I would, in my mind, doing a hard effort, say I had like a 10 minute interval to do. Like, in my mind, I would be saying to myself, if you hit this power, you you make the Olympic team like I would have these things in my mind that would motivate me during say super hard efforts or intervals and use that kind of disappointment in training and then in racing, like get up to that girl up there on the bike. That's like you getting selected like using that. So I definitely used it throughout most of triathlon. And then now I've shifted triathlon and to gravel and Ultra and a lot of times in my ultra running all picture, like I'm running on li drive in, I'll say, like, get up to the girl up there. This is you getting to the lead and Kona. And so I still use, yeah, the things from previous sports in these new ventures as motivation as like digging deeper, because I definitely have left each one kind of with things that I didn't necessarily accomplish that maybe I wish I had. But I also think, okay, it's kept me going this long of like, these new, new goals, and I can use all of that stuff I learned in the previous ones now. So it's been this interesting kind of Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 41:44
Journey. I find the way athletes talk to themselves in their internal monologue while competing and training to be incredibly fascinating. Would you mind sharing more about what is it like for you during competition specifically, and it sounds like you're someone who is very present and you go more deeply into the experience, and you have certain things that motivate you, some people dissociate, it seems like people who are highly successful don't dissociate from the pain, they go into it, and they sit in it, and then they have some kind of talk with themselves. So could you say, Would you mind saying more about what your experience of that is like?
Heather Jackson 42:27
Yeah, I mean, I'm certainly, yeah, it's, it's definitely an interesting, interesting, I guess, variety of things I go to, my husband asked me about this in a YouTube we were gonna do, maybe still a con but it's, I always am like, I don't want to scare people with some of the things I go to because I have different things in my mind that come depending on the day again, I think similar to books and what book you're reading on the day, like if you're just you just need an easy like easy read or your your you have more energy on the day. It's the same with my mindset of if I have a hard bike session to do on the day and I'm in a certain mood, I go to a certain thing and anywhere from using kind of my competitors. If I mean like a race mindset, and I'm like, Okay, you have 30 seconds on right now 30 seconds off, like this is the start of the race. This is you getting on say Sofia's wheel or someone's one of my competitors, we'll you everything right now. This is you getting on our wheel, and I'll use race like scenarios from the past, and how I, I foresee maybe a race going of like, okay, I'll use that for my efforts. Some days, I'm not in like, as focused on a certain race and I don't have that kind of go to there. And I'll use like, a lot of times I use come off as morbid but like my grandparents have both passed. And I say to myself, they were my biggest supporters with my parents and I'll say to myself, like you push now you hold you know, 280 watts for the next minute like you like you get another 10 minutes with data who is my grandpa? And it's like, I go to things beyond like way beyond like what I care the most about and to have 10 more minutes with him if I do this and that doesn't even equal any amount of pain in my legs for that one minute that I'm doing an interval if I had that with him and so I go to these things that are like way deeper Yeah, if that makes sense. Yeah. Any day that comes into my mind it's insane like it and those are just come to my another one is like this one's horrible. But I had like 32nd errs and in my head I was like Stevie my puppy is in the road. And if you put hold over 400 watts right now for 30 seconds, you'll get to her before The car gets there. And it's like and I want to try to think of some positive ones because I don't want to come off as as a negative person but it's it's what drives you to dig the deepest you ever would the things that you care about your my grandpa, my puppy, like, gets me way beyond what I would think I could do pushing a bike pedal. And I use those yeah to dig to dig deep when I have to.
Andrew Vontz 45:26
In I mean, given that that's where your head's at when you're competing. And the part of like gravel and ultra running specifically is people get to interact with the professional athletes like you, they really enjoy that and the expo area the day before, and maybe even the morning of the race. People are like, Oh my God, it's Heather Jackson. And is that challenging at all for you to kind of mentally juggle that? Because there's a space that you need to be in? And I don't know when that flip that switch like actually flips for you. Is it like when the gun goes off? Or is your head already there? Like when you're writing over to the starting line for unbound and maybe somebody wants an autograph or a selfie or something?
Heather Jackson 46:09
Um, I think it's I actually I think it took me a bit to not Yeah, get, I guess frazzled with that. For me. It's still like, oh my god, someone wants to say hi to me, like, cool. Like, thank you so much. I mean, it's still all or if someone wants to say hi to you, for me, it's like, okay, like, that's cool. That's really cool. And for me, it kind of takes the pressure off that start line that's kind of looming and takes that mind off of it. I think it's usually at the very start of races. It's those final like, three minute countdowns. And at even an unbound there's this massive clock that's been counting down since however, 30 minutes out or whatever saying at Western States this year, it was the weirdest start line I've ever been on. Because usually at races, there's like music playing or there's this like, loud energy of people getting ready. And it was like silence, but there was just this clock up above the start line. And it was just everyone was just watching it in silence. And it was so just like different, I guess. Yeah. But I would say, I think yeah, the mind switch the mind switch is yeah, in those final final few minutes. And then the second that the race starts, it's it's on but I don't mind the the like kind of like distractions before of saying hi to someone or like wishing them good luck. Because it's yeah, it's almost like a takes your mind off it. Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 47:38
and I mean, it totally varies from person to person. Of course, I've in my professional career, I've prepared and coached a lot of people to be in extremely high stress, high consequence environments, where they're going to have to go perform in a different way than a professional athlete will. And some people are extremely state sensitive. And like you have to be really careful about what you're doing and how you help them manage their energy. So it's always interesting to me to hear how different people respond to that. And again, I think it's awesome that in professional cycling and ultra running, fans can have proximity to athletes. And like there's a dancer, like there's something going on for these people about to do these extraordinary things that, you know, it's not on everybody's mind all the time. But
Heather Jackson 48:29
totally. Yeah. I mean, that's a great thing about triathlon and grabone Ultra, like everyone's doing the same thing. And so it's Yeah, everyone gets to be on that same start line, and everyone's about to ride 200 miles. Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 48:42
Yeah. So I know we talked a little bit about your interview with that triathlon life. And something that really jumped out at me in that interview is, it seems like your entire triathlon career, you, you did not love swimming. So it was very, it was very interesting to me, that you were able to, to like, do something that you didn't enjoy very much. There was such a core part of what you had to do as a triathlete. And how did you get yourself to do that? Oh, my gosh. Could you like describe your relationship with swimming for people who maybe haven't listened to that interview? Oh, my
Heather Jackson 49:22
gosh, yeah. So my swimming. I mean, I didn't start swimming. My grandpa had a pool in his backyard. So I knew how to, I guess stay above water, but I never swam. It was probably the one sport I didn't do. So my whole experience growing up with water was when it was frozen for hockey. So I started swimming when I was Yeah. 2223. And I think early on, it was I never liked it. I was never like, Yay, can't wait to get to the pool, but I was seeing enough improvements. Like over sessions or year to year that those first probably five or six years. It wasn't. I was. Yeah, I never like like I just said, I never enjoyed it. But I also enjoy, I did enjoy the fact that I would see progress. So I would go from whatever, a two minute 100. All of a sudden, I was down to a minute 50 for it. And the work I was putting in was showing progress. But then later on in my career, I got to the point where I was putting in the same amount of work or more, even more, I was swimming more, I was working with all these different swim coaches, I was investing so much time and energy and money in everything and traveling places like living new places, just to work with a certain coach, and I was still still swimming that like one, whatever it is for 100. And like, when you start when you go year after year, and there's no improvement and you can't seem to get it and you try all these new mindsets with it all these new techniques, starting all over again from scratch, and it was just, it gets to be where you're just like, Okay, well, like I've given everything. And that's where the now now what like what should we do? Because, yeah, it's swimming, it's so hard to that's the one that is probably the most frustrating thing for me is that the harder you work doesn't mean you're gonna go faster. And to the TTL podcasts you keep referencing, if you ask Paul and Eric, like, I would come to the every swim session with them, because for me, they're they're so good, there's so much better than me, I'm only going to learn from them and try to get faster, they would tell you that I was working probably quadruple as hard as they are in the pool, like just every day. Everything I had to try to find improvements. And it's like I was going slower. Because the harder you go in water, it's almost like you can't muscle your way through it. You have it's technique based it's you have to feel the water you have to flow with it all these things, and I just never got that feel.
Andrew Vontz 52:14
And so what specifically did you dislike about it though? Other than like, it's extremely hard to progress. It's highly technical. What would be your feeling when you would be in the pool swimming and doing the workouts? Like was it just this sucks? It's boring. Like, I'm sorry. Generally the feelings I have when I tried to swim for a long time. So what was it like for you? Yeah,
Heather Jackson 52:34
it's more that you're working super hard. I always felt like I was going to drown. Because I'm breathing so hard. I'm just wheezing, sucking in air, every fourth breath and getting like a mouthful of water. I mean, and you're just going back and forth, like staring down at a black line. And then in 30 seconds flip turning, which I didn't even start flipped turning to later in my career because I would get water in my ear up my nose every single time. It was just not enjoyable. I'm yeah, you're just wet, cold, drowning, going back and forth at 32nd intervals back and forth hitting a wall back and forth. And it was just, yeah, it was that kind of mouse, mouse wheel you were talking about where it's just you just have to lock in and do it for a purpose. Not because you're enjoying at all what you're doing.
Andrew Vontz 53:32
Yeah, and you mentioned that you sought out all kinds of different experts to help you with swimming. When you think about like the full arc of your career as an athlete and a person. Who do you think of as the people who've been real force multipliers that have helped you to elevate beyond maybe what you thought was possible or have you know, helped you tap into something within yourself have given you insights that have propelled you forward?
Heather Jackson 53:56
That's such a good one. I feel like I have so many people that I would bring up for different different reasons. I mean, I think first a mind overarching is just my husband Watty who I mean he he oversees everything in terms of like, he sees me every single day and like everything I go through the hard workouts I do if I wake up and I'm feeling horrible and but I might have training on my schedule for whatever coach I'm I was working with at the time and he's like, doesn't matter go to the couch like you're tired, you're not going to you're gonna get sick versus going to do that workout or I think he really taught me that has taught me the most about listening to my body and just also just race tactics, having raised himself and just seeing the different Yeah, progressions we've gone through in triathlon and the new sports but like, why won't you he has this very like realistic mindset like why don't you do this or why don't you approach the race this way or so? Always having kind of that second view on things training racing, and he's been there my entire career from literally when I was 23 Till now so he's certainly I guess the biggest component of this whole journey I think. Yeah, I I would feel bad I think listening some coaches because then others out but Yeah, certainly got have had the opportunity to work with some really great coaches who have brought different styles of training, I think over my triathlon career, I tried a couple different styles of training. And that helped me in the end now just to know the athlete, I am now of what works better, I guess. But, yeah.
Andrew Vontz 55:46
So that something you just mentioned is really interesting to me, because part of again, like part of what you have to do, and really, in all domains of life, and certainly as a professional athlete, is you have to push beyond what you believe might be possible and do stuff that in the case of endurance sports, it feels pretty horrible. And as you mentioned, you also, the best professionals know when to like, shut it down, right? And when it's like, yeah, actually, this isn't going to help me I need to go rest today, I don't need to go do another, I don't need to go run down the the highway that's like an 18% grade and destroy my quads. Is that something that you've been able to tune more as you get deeper into your professional career? Or is that a balance that you've always had? I
Heather Jackson 56:35
think know, for sure something that I think has come with kind of time in the sport time in in training as an endurance athlete, and just learning from past mistakes. I can't tell you the number of years in a row early in my career, I would always start my season at Oceanside 70.3. And it was kind of the massive kickoff North American racing on the triathlon calendar. And I would have such a great build every single year, just I would I always kick started my training Jan first. And it was basically a four month build, or I guess, three, three and a half month build towards mid April for Oceanside. And I think three or four years in a row. In my early days, like I would need to nail that final workout the weekend before just like one more time, like I would already be on the edge from having trained hard for three months. And that final Saturday, one week out, I wouldn't need to do that final brick workout and nail the efforts the power run super hard off and it was like I was racing myself then versus leaving it for the race. And I was leaving it out there one week out versus just using it as you know, check in maybe only go 80% That day because you know you have the race one week later, not leaving it out there then, and I would wake up I would go all in because I wanted to see you know how fit I was I was ready to prove I was ready. They're not on race day. And then I'd wake up Sunday sick. And I think because I was already on the edge. I was like yeah, and I would come into Oceanside race week with a cold and that happened like two or three years in a row. Because I was just so amped for the race. I needed that final hard workout. I was Yeah, had had been pushing things for 12 weeks and then boom. So it's like knowing okay, that final workout nailing that isn't what you're trying to hit you're trying to hit the race and then just using that that's just an example that comes to mind but within training as well like day to day week to week I mean one day taken easy or even just to the couch over going out because it says on your program you have a four hour ride when you know in your gut that you don't feel right or you feel a little under the weather and that you could go do the ride but you also feel borderline like a cold is coming that it's taken that time to be like okay, it's not worth it then you're out for the next week to 10 days with a cold or longer so having the I think maturity to say now I need the rest day even though my program says this. That's taken years and years for sure to be okay with
Andrew Vontz 59:26
what loss bothers you the most? Is there a specific race that just slip through your fingers that still bothers you today?
Heather Jackson 59:35
wildflower triathlon? 2017 I think it was see there so I think it's 17 Yeah.
wildflower triathlon was my first ever win as a professional. It also happened to be my most favorite race ever. It was such an epic party. It was so fun. And then I went on to win it 1516 I want it five times. But that seven there was a year in there where it was just this crazy race battle between there were three or four of us at the front. And actually a good friend of mine, I gotten off the front Rachel McBride, and they had a lead all the way up until probably three miles to go. And I finally got up to them. And I was like, Oh, my God, I got it. And then there's this long downhill run into the finish line and the finish shoot. And Liz Lyles, who I was friends with her, we shared the same coach at the time, but she was in an exceptional runner. She got me in the finishing shoot, like 10 yards out, just pointing down. And that was my not even that loss and to get past in the shoe, but it was like that was my race. I was on like a three year streak with it in. I was just Javis that was the only one that I was just like, yeah, deficit.
Andrew Vontz 1:01:07
Yeah, that's it hurts hearing about it. So I can only imagine what it feels like to be the experience.
Heather Jackson 1:01:14
In a huge photo, every time I see it, I'm like
Andrew Vontz 1:01:21
I guess conversely, what victory do you consider to be the most transformative that you've gotten to experience?
Heather Jackson 1:01:31
The most transformative, I mean, I think the biggest victory that for me means the most I won Escape from Alcatraz triathlon in 2013. And that should have been a race. I should not even have been close to the front. I mean, given the swim alone, I was I had gotten a late entry someone had dropped that it used to be where they just invite 15 grows. And a good friend of ours called and was like, someone can't make it like, Do you want an entry and I was like, Holy crap, because I was, I was early in my career. I was not a good swimmer. Not that I ever was. But that was like, oh my god, I'm gonna swim from a boat to shore in kind of the bay where you can get sucked out to sea. I've heard all these things. But it was one of those like, this is a bucket list race. This is one of the races coming into the sport that I had heard of, and was like, skate from Alcatraz. And yeah, it was just a crazy day, I think. I don't know what I was back out of the water, I want to say seven minutes to the lead ish. But Lottie and I had gone to San Francisco, like a week early, scouted the bike course I actually rode my road bike instead of my triathlon bike. And we like went over every corner on that course, practice cornering all the corners. Just yeah, covered everything. And so got out of that water and just went to work. And somehow, yeah, found, found my way to the front of it and, and to break the tape at that race that, for me, was always one of the iconic races beyond like Akona and some of the other big ones it was like to have that title now means the most to me, because of the difficulty. You have that kind of that course. And that's when mainly, yeah,
Andrew Vontz 1:03:23
clearly it's still meaningful today. When you actually won the race, how long did the high last afterwards?
Heather Jackson 1:03:34
Um, I would say a good I think now I look back on it more fondly than I did in the moment the high lasted. So after races in the early on in our in my career, we I think celebrated properly. I mean, we used to take a full recovery week. And like party and just I think after that, especially if it went well. I mean, after that, when we went to Napa, we were in the Bay Area with my sister and brother in law. And we were, we were like three days just going to different wineries and hanging out and I don't I probably didn't train at all like now. It's crazy. The second races and like people are back on the trainer, like spinning the legs out or recovery run later in the day. I mean, it's it's the High Performance side is definitely next level compared to I think some of those earlier, grassroot days when it was like, Okay, you got a week to recover. Then we ease back into training and we would take those weeks and yeah, I remember after a lot of races, it would be three, four or five days of just yeah, not even anything related to the sport. Just yeah, celebrating.
Andrew Vontz 1:04:41
That sounds pretty fun. Yeah, that's awesome. And when you look forward to this season, and beyond, what are the events that you would most like to win? And you know, I'm not asking you to call your shots here. But if you want to you can, like what would you really, really you'd like to win what would be the most meaningful things that are left for you to achieve in your career at this point?
Heather Jackson 1:05:05
Yeah, I mean, I think I certainly have the races I'm targeting this year and I want to Yeah, I guess I can put that out there. I want to win them. I'm not training as hard as I do not to try to go for that. For sure. So but I think the ones I really am eyeing are Sandy, the San Diego DWR. I want to go back to that one. And really try to perform well there Unbound, SPT gravel in August and big sugar in October, I would say those are the four that I really just want to show up at and have my eye on. And on the running side. I mean, Western states is western states. It's the biggest one in North America have an entry to it. It's yeah, I didn't make it to the finish last year. That one is on the running side, really kind of what I'm targeting right now. So those events on my calendar are highlighted in gold. Some of the others are maybe a different color, but those I would say are my focus this season.
Andrew Vontz 1:06:08
And if we were to look out two or three years, do you have anything up your sleeve that you haven't disclosed yet? Are we going to see you do tour divide? Are you going to do a Lachlan Martin, like what have you got Heather?
Heather Jackson 1:06:20
Totally. So when he called that I love Lachlan. I don't know that. Well, I mean, I see him on the at some races. But yeah,
I mean, I think what he does is just epic. And yeah, I certainly want to race. Race at a high level at these events that I'm at right now, but I mean, yes, certainly a tour de Vide Colorado trail and AZT, maybe maybe a ride the AZT and run the AZT. something epic like that. I think that's definitely the direction I'm going whether it's in another year or two. It's yeah, that's on my bucket list of something. Something along those lines. Some of those longer, longer epic events going after something for sure.
Andrew Vontz 1:07:02
Awesome. Well, Heather, thanks so much for being here today. I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Heather Jackson 1:07:07
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Andrew Vontz 1:07:08
This was great. All right, now I'm gonna hit stop.